200 grain point

[nclonghunter]

Does anyone shoot a 200 grain point from their compound with carbon arrows?
I want to shoot 100 grain brass insert and 100 grain broadhead.
All arrow charts only go to 125 grain points, so how do you tune an arrow with a 200 grain point, carbon shaft?

 

[Jimbow65]

I have not seen brass inserts. I think you could subtract the weight of the standard alum. insert (I just checked and they only weigh 11 grain)
100 grain insert seem heavy. Why do you want all that weight?

 

[Bullhunter]

same question, why would you want to shoot something that heavy? I shoot 100gr and the work great. 200gr seems a little over the top.

 

[nclonghunter]

The short answer is , "Bone Crushing Penetration"

3 Rivers offers both 50 and 100 grain inserts for 5/16 carbon shafts, that replaces the aluminum inserts.

The longer answer;
I really like the Muzzy Phantom MX4 cut on contact BH, that weighs in at 100 grains. With 50 grain brass inserts it would bump it to 150 grain front end or the 100 grain brass insert you can go to 200. I used to always shoot 145 grain BH (Razor Back 5) when shooting aluminum arrows (old days) and I always had great penetration.
No question that going heavier in front gives more FOC weight and better penetration along with increased stability when shooting BH. It also makes the over all arrow heavier.  A heavier arrow will make your bow shoot "quieter and slower" shortening your shooting distance some. Slower is the only downside that I know of.
Perhaps 200 grains is too much, but I am at least hoping to getback to 150 grain front weight. Just no charts to help out with those weights. Traditional shooters will often shoot 200+ weight on their arrows. It is just not generally viewed as acceptable by compound shooters even though the bows are so efficient and able to shoot a heavy arrow at greater speeds than traditional bows. To me, shooting whitetails is one thing but large boned elk is another.......

 

[nclonghunter]

On another thread or post it was asked "pass throughs" and most arrow weights are in the mid 400 range. I had hoped to get into the low 500 range with mine, but reading the posts that are showing that the 500 range may not be necessary.

Just wanting the best "arrow performance" and "penetration", which requires some experimenting for me.

 

[Big Tex]

I migrated to a 600 grain arrow this year with a high FOC and have loved the results - accurate/stable/quiet arrow that can blow through bone....The bone cutting is aided by the move to a two blade 125 grain broad head (ABS silver flame) with a 75 grain insert.  What most suprised me is that I added 200 grains to my arrow weight, I only got about 6-8 inches of additional drop at 50 yards.

If you're curious about the topic of heavy arrows and extreme FOC check out Dr Ashby's work.

 

[nclonghunter]

Big Tex, that is exactly what I am talking about. I am very familiar with Dr. Ashby's work and what it means. Problem is, no one making carbon shafts are doing tests and making charts for those kind of weights. Its all about speed or at least minumum weight.
What arrow are you shooting and how is it put together? What poundage are you shooting? I have not seen the 75 grain inserts, only 50 and 100. Once you get that heavy arrow moving it is going to be hard to stop. Thanks for the reply.

 

[Big Tex]

Sure, let me dig up the particulars and I'll post it up tonight or tomorrow....

 

[Big Tex]

Looks like I'm running the EastonAxis Nfused carbons in a 300 spine with the Easton brass Hit break off inserts.

 

[Kmbingham92]

I know someone who has weighted their arrows and put an arrow a little far forward but the arrow penetrated the shoulder and ended up breaking both shoulders so I know this works good.

 

[Fullabull]

How does adding that much weight to the front of an arrow affect its stiffness? That seams like you could really change the flight of your arrow and  possibly cause tuning issues that cannot be corrected ? I think if you have a  heavy arrow like a Easton FMJ and carry the weight with the whole arrow with good FOC you will get the best performance from it at all ranges. Just my two cents

 

[nclonghunter]

The heavier the front weight the stiffer the arrow/spine can be, which will make a heavier arrow. Imagine tying a string to a rock and throwing it. The string will always follow and at impact the rock will be the driving force, dragging the string behind. Now imagine the string in front of the rock hitting first and the rock weight behind. The slightest off angle of the string in front would force the entire penetration out of alignment, causing it to lose momentum and penetration going side ways. The more forward weight also makes the balance point of the arrow farther forward which puts more steering into the feathers. Picture the balance point on an arrow being two inches in front of the feathers. The feathers are actually controlling from the two inches in front of the feathers back to the nock. If the balance point is two inches behind the point, then the feathers are steering the entire shaft up to the two inches behind the point. This is all achieved by forward weight.  A lot more control over the arrow.  Read Dr. Ashbys reports on FOC.

 

[Fullabull]

I have always been under the impression that the higher the weight at the front of the arrow the weaker you will make the spine. You will have to let us know how that turns out, especially at longer distances. I would assume that doing this will also limit the range you can shoot without the arrow dropping drastically.

 

[nclonghunter]

You are correct the heavier the front weight the weaker the spine. What I meant was you will need to go to a stiffer and heavier shaft when you add more front weight. By going to a stiffer shaft it will add weight to the overall arrow.


You will lose speed but gain energy at impact. I do not intend to shoot over 40 yards with a compound and the drop will not be that much greater. It is learning your range and how to shoot it. I always think of dropping an official baseball and a whiffle ball from the same height, which one will do the most damage with a broad head on the front?


There is a point that weight of arrow is more than needed and speed suffers greatly. I personally do not believe an arrow in the 450-550 range is in that suffering range. I have heard 10 grains per pound is good. A 60 pound bow would be a 600 grain arrow. If traditional bowers are shooting those weights, why are the superior designs and speeds of a compound not able to shoot those weights faster and more accurately...it seems to be taboo for some reason

 

[Fullabull]

I see what you are saying , you can actually purchase an arrow that is probably to stiff for you bow but by adding weight to the tip you can reduce the spine to fit you setup while adding more weight to your arrow. My arrows are 475 grns at 70# but I only have 100 grn tips. I could to to 125's but have had not reason to yet.


Let us know how it goes!

 

[nclonghunter]

Fullabull, shooting 70# and a 475 grain arrow you have more than most and have plenty of weight. I also like a 100 grain BH and that is why I use 50 or 100 grain brass inserts to get my front end weight up to 150-200. You could easily go to a 125 point or 150, but remember you may need to go to a stiffer spine arrow.
Attached is a photo that I shot today. My bow is set at 60#. The three arrows are weighing in at 580 grains with a 100 grain brass insert and 125 field points. These were shot at 40 yards and my bow is sighted in to hit the upper dot with a 488 grain arrow (total weight) that includes a 175 grain point. The ones in the target are some I am trying out and I like them.  I also wondered what would be the results, but you can see it only has a difference of 4-6 inches at 40 yards with excellent penetration.

 

[Fullabull]

Sweet! Hopefully they don't hit that tree behind your target
Thanks for sharing your results!

 

[bluewine]

Love this thread!  I missed it when everyone was bombarding the forum with new posts... I'm a fan of heavier arrows and a higher FOC for hunting...especially large animals like Elk and Moose.



I shoot a 200 grain broadhead (ABS Massai), with a 75 grain insert, on 300 spine FMJ's out of a Carbon Matrix at 70lbs.  It works very well.  I have a 5 pin sight with 20-60yd pins and can put the bubble of the sight housing on my target and drop an arrow in at about 75yards...


Anybody can read up on Dr. Ashby, but I will confirm a couple of things...


1. The set-up is very quiet...in my experience, all bows are quieter with heavier arrows.  No wind noise from the solid broadheads is an advantage too.


2. Penetration at all ranges is superior.  You will split bone and get pass-throughs.  You cannot develop enough speed to equal the penetration benefits you get with higher arrow weights, and a high FOC.


3. Wind has less of an impact on the arrow flight.


It's all opinion anyway.  I have both ABS 200grain and VPA 200 grain broadheads in my quiver and m very happy with both.

 

[nclonghunter]

bluewine, You are shooting some heavy weights, but at 70# you can. I also find the arrow more interesting than the bow. Bow designs are outstanding and give top performance. It's the arrow that can be changed and designed to fit the shooter and bow. It's funny, but once the arrow has left the bow, it's all about the arrow from there. It's the only part that actually contacts the game and makes the kill so a lot of thought should go into it.

I am learning that an arrow too heavy or too foc is not a good choice either. It's finding that balance between speed and weight, getting the best of both worlds. All carbon arrow manufactures only test with a 125 grain point, so it's up to us to get it right.

Here is a good site to change arrow weights and point weights to see what KE and speeds you get;
http://www.backcountrybowhunting.com/articles/calc/