A Difficult Question

S

Swede

New member
Mar 4, 2014
1,722
In the interest of developing the BTO forum, especially for the rifle hunters, I have a few observations and a question. It seems bow hunters are more talkative than rifle hunters in general. We will talk about everything from camp sites to tree stands. We will discuss tactics and equipment over and over again. I have attributed that, to the level of interest we need to be effective, and the need for attention to detail. Maybe I am mistaken on this, but we seen to be more than willing to share our best information.
So why aren\'t the rifle hunters as interested in sharing their experiences and asking questions? It is no personal problem to me, but I asked about how rifle hunters go about scouting for elk. Chica wanted to hear from some of you, but there was only two brief responses. The bow hunters could answer the question for her, based on our experiences, but rifle hunters must have specific experiences to go on.
I am not trying to put my rifle hunting friends on the spot, but rather I want to see how we can better meet your needs and help newer hunters develop. Plus, I may want to go on a rifle elk again sometime. :D
 
I think it has to do with the added hordes of hunters that come with the rifle seasons. bow hunters typically don\'t face the same crowds but it seems to be getting worse there too. I find myself more hesitant to share info because it seems then I have to learn a new trick and adapt instead of just doing what has worked in the past. I rifle hunted for years and still go with my dad and brother even if I don\'t have a tag. I personally have been burned by sharing info and then having a \"buddy\"(use loosely) now take others and ruin a spot. I feel anyone who has had that happen to them will always have some resentment on sharing info. a lot of times I look over what has been said sometimes even type a response only to delete it and never post it. Personally I find bow hunters to be more courteous hunters you may share info and they will give you a wide path or even ask permission to use. rifle hunters seem to not care, if they walk up 10 steps from you they will sit down and say hey its public land. while I agree they technically have a right to be there if someone is where I want to be I will move on or talk to them and figure out the direction they are going so I can do the opposite. I find more bow hunters are like me. sorry for the long drawn out response hope it makes some sense.
 
Tdiesel makes some interesting observations, and I agree with almost all. Bowhunters, as a specie, are more dedicated to the overall craft. There are many more bowhunters who are \"hunters\", many as a lifestyle, while almost every rifle hunter I know simply \"goes hunting\" for a few days a year.

I\'ve also experienced the rudeness of rifle hunters a number of times in different situations, where bowhunters not only seem more courteous, but more friendly I general. I have many stories about inconsiderate rifle hunters, but one that comes to mind was when I was guiding a rifle elk hunter on public land. We were sitting on a bench watching a fence crossing coming out of private, great trail. Two other guys in orange came up over the rise, saw us sitting there, shrugged, walked over and sat on a log facing the fence crossing exactly in our line of fire, about 40 yards in front of us.

After a bit, when it became apparent that they weren\'t going to leave, we left. Didn\'t want an armed confrontation when we were outgunned 2:1. But I\'ve seen this type of behavior a number of times where other rifle hunters try to get in shooting position ahead of other hunters they know are there. Happened another time when I was guiding a rifle pronghorn hunter and we were watching a salt ground down below a bluff. Another guy saw us and decided to crawl through the sagebrush to get in below us and cut the buck off. My hunter killed that big buck in front of the guy, who wasn\'t wearing orange as he crawled through the sagebrush.

Have never seen this type of behavior with bowhunters, although I\'ve heard it exists on some waterholes for pronghorns and for elk in NM and AZ.
 
Its because most rifle hunters cant figure out how to turn on a computer......

(I\'m just ribbing the rifle hunters of course) :D
 
I will say not all bow hunters are more polite and not all rifle hunters are rude I have seen cases in each just as a generalization of group standpoint I feel this is why it is that maybe bow hunters share more readily.
 
This question could be a slippery slope but on this website I don\'t think it will come to that. I hunt what ever is legal. This year I am bow hunting for elk, I have a muzzleloader tag for mule deer and then I will be bowhunting for whitetails. I prefer bowhunting to any other hunting especially for whitetail. Most bowhunters tend to be more friendly and courteous to others and more willing to help out. But regardless of your weapon of choice if you are not raised or taught to be respectful being a bowhunter/rifle hunter isn\'t going to change that. Bowhunters are also a lot more disciplined. We have to wait for the perfect shot, have the animal in closer than any other method of hunting.

Myself and Dan(iccyman) ran into a group filming a turkey hunt this year and one of them came off like a jerk. He claimed that this public land spot was his because they had hunted it in years past. Dan and myself did the polite thing and didn\'t argue about it. We relocated several hundred yards in the opposite direction on a different side of the creek. I feel that if we would have been there first the other party would have been more of a jerk and setup right on top of us.

Back east there is always the big debate about dog hunters and hunters. The way I see it is if all hunters no matter what you prefer to participate in can\'t get along it just gives fuel to the anti-hunting groups out there.
 
super interesting question.

I LOVE hunting rifles. LOVE THEM! if i could, i would build up a long range hunting rifle and give it a try. having said that, i just dont have the money, or the time, or the energy. i just want to hone my craft as a bowhunter. it is all i have the resources for.

so i essentially chose my tool of choice and devoted myself to it. a couple of things i found.

bowhunting. to be successful, it takes some level of commitment. you have to practice more, focus more on the gear aspect, and know the equipment. EXAMPLE. i think i can take someone else\'s rifle out and kill a deer. no problem. HOWEVER i cannot take one of your bows and do the same thing. bowhunting is very gear specific. you have to get fitted even..like a good pair of jeans. all this generates a whole other level of conversation. we love passing on info, gathering info, etc. we are a chatty bunch.

i read an article once about some non-hunter trying to bowhunt. he wanted to arrow a pig, butcher it, and cook it..field to table thing. he said his journey showed him one thing. bowhunters are like the next level. we even went on to say bowhunters appear to think of themselves as the STEWARDS OF THE LAND. we pay attention to the natural resource and respect it.

not saying rifle hunters dont..not saying that at all. this guy became a bowhunter for life.

we just love our stuff, we are proud and we like to talk about it..it\'s a pretty good club to be in.
 
One word of caution on bowhunters. Brand new elk bowhunters who buy their bows after July 4th. They show up opening weekend and maybe Labor Day weekend. You may see them cruising the road a bit. They may follow you into the woods to your spot. I have seen this a bit the last 2 seasons after the recession was over. They are also the bowhunters who may only hunt when the weather is warm and dry. They are pretty obvious.

They leave me alone because a woman doesn\'t know anything about where the elk are located ;) I think this is why people don\'t hunt much near my camp. They must think I have scared all the elk and deer away. I love it!

I know some locals that have had to deal with them. They usually stop by to alert me about these rascals. I don\'t run into them in the woods because they stay within 0.5 mile of the road.

So far, I have had good experiences with muzzleloaders.

I don\'t run into many rifle hunters. The ones I have seen are usually set up in massive tent cities and are drinking day and night. The locals also alert me about those camps, so I avoid those areas. The local rifle hunters are not the ones I ever have to worry about. They generally shoot their elk within 150 yards. They are mostly meat hunters and don\'t go about bothering others.

I know the game warden\'s name for my unit. This information is important for everyone to know, plus the number for the CPW office. IMHO, it is better not to have a confrontation.

I have had a couple of cases where men have tried to harass and intimidate me in suburbia USA. I am familiar with the details of the Harassment law. Amazing how people find their moral compass when I list the details of the law and tell them a deputy will be happy to explain the law to them. They immediately back down and get the hell away from me. Only in one case did I have to call 911 because the guy used his truck to block me from exiting a parking lot. The deputies helped the guy find his integrity that he had misplaced. When individuals think they can get away with bullying, they will continue to bully. As a woman, I have a lot of experience with this. I do my very best to avoid confrontation. I have had a lot of practice.
 
Mutt, I know what you wrote it is all true and then some. Some idiots believe you are incapable of thinking for yourself, taking care of yourself or women are all something to play with. Be thankful you are not black or Hispanic.
I was disgusted the other night when I was told my wife\'s calling of the Lord was to clean the church. She cleans the church as a service to the Lord. She holds up her end. She is a graduate microbiologist, bilingual, and a excellent pianist to name just a few of her accomplishments. She is also Hispanic so several times through her career people thought she was just the cleaning woman.
 
Swede, That is horrible. No one has tried to pull that one on me. In the early part of my career, they tried to make me \"Secretary\" during meetings. I always tell them that my hearing loss prevents me from being the secretary which is true. I never had to play secretary. :D

My comments were not meant to bad mouth guys. Between work and personal life, men account for 75% of my mentors. I am fortunate that in software engineering a majority of the people are not in the 1950\'s attitude on women\'s work. My male boss and I have had a few laughs about a couple of people. I take it in stride, sit back and let them sweat when their software blows up. I even have a good story about an Army Colonel at an AFB who sent me home early and waited for my male co-worker to show up to tell him the same thing I told him 2 days earlier. My co-worker was not happy he had to get on a plane because the Colonel would not believe me when I told him that a data cable was not wired correctly by the vendor. I love that story. I have others.
 
As I read all of this, I am a little shocked by some of the stereotypes rifle hunters have from bow hunters. From the responses here, apparently rifle hunting is easier, doesn\'t require as much dedication, and is filled with a bunch of inconsiderate drunks. I am sorry to hear that this is what people really think of us, because I could easily flip every argument back at bow hunters without even being one. I have heard the stories on here of other hunters claiming a herd for themselves while bow hunting or following someone into the woods to steal their spots. You are going to find these jerks no matter when you hunt. Personally, I have run across one person who was a bit inconsiderate over my 20 years in the woods, but that\'s it. And yes, you will see a rifle hunter enjoying a beverage of their choice in their camp, just like you will see bow hunters doing the same thing.

The truth to the whole scenario is that rifle hunts are just a heck of a lot different than bow hunts. Our biggest difficulty is finding the elk, whereas that isn\'t the difficult thing to do for bow hunters. Once a bow hunter finds elk, their hunt starts. Once a rifle hunter finds elk, their hunt typically ends. So there is a lot of different strategies involved in bow hunting that don\'t necessarily apply to the strategies of rifle hunters. Our biggest hurdle is trying to stay positive and continue on when you haven\'t seen an elk in five days and it feels like there isn\'t one within a 30 mile radius of us. The dedication it takes to continue on each day and cover more and more ground trying to find a solitary bull that is off by himself is very high. I am willing to bet that there are far more bow hunters who fill their tag every year versus rifle hunters. And I don\'t necessarily feel it\'s because the bow hunter hunts harder or is more dedicated.
 
Derek, Very good points. If I offended anyone, I apologize.

For my unit, I should clarify that the tent city rifle hunter camps have out of state license plates. I see them every year. I get concerned about the amount of target practicing they do midday in the woods near their camp, so I stay far away.

However, I have met out of state rifle hunters that are very dedicated to finding elk and spend more hours in the field than I do. Some of them only have 5 days to fill their tag. One year, a very successful CO rifle hunter graciously shared his meat with me. He loves hunting and fills 2-3 tags each year and can\'t possibility eat all the meat. The rifle hunters I personally know are very dedicated to elk hunting and probably hunt harder than I do. I lived in the CO mountains for 8 years, so I had a bit of interaction with various hunters throughout the seasons.

Stereotypes do not hold up for any group of people. Better to look at individuals.
 
Derek, I know it is not fair to stereotype any group. I believe crowding, including short seasons, and more draw only areas, brings out some of the problems we see with rifle hunters. I agree the good guys don\'t all chose one weapon over another, and here in Oregon, where bow hunting has gotten much more crowded, I see and hear of far too much cheating and un-sportsmanlike conduct.
Whereas that may be a great idea for discussion, it does not get to the point of how we can engage rifle hunters. I am no internet genius by any measure, but the hunting forums I have visited are all dominated by bow hunters. I would like to see BTO be able to engage rifle and muzzleloader hunters more. I feel there is an opportunity there, if we can become relevant to them. After all there are many publications that are targeting rifle and muzzleloader hunters successfully.
It was mentioned earlier, that rifle hunters are more secretive, because they fear people will capitalize on the information, and reduce the helpers opportunity to have a quality hunt. I know that is not even close to a quote, but lets just talk tactics. Lets reach out to those folks that want to improve on their success, and to young wantabe hunters. Lets try to give them information and encouragement. I know it is a mixed deal for the person that mentors others. We may encourage them to compete for tags we want and they may end up in our area. They may even kill more critters. On the other hand; properly trained hunters are not out messing up, bugling their heads off with no rhyme or reason, or just running around, and pushing the elk onto private land.
 
Derek, you make some good points. One thing though, rifle success rates are way higher than archery, exponentially so based on days hunted per hunter per year.

With all due respect, how many elk rifle hunters do you know with the kind of dedication of the average bow hunter? Staying fit year round, shooting much of the year, scouting regularly, training in summer, making it a sort of \"lifestyle\" vs something they just go \"do\" for a few days a year with a group of buddies? Honestly, in my 46 years of hunting and and many years of guiding, I really can\'t name one that even comes close to the dedication of even the run of the mill bowhunters I know. In fact, I don\'t know any rifle elk hunters besides Randy Newberg and Steven Rinella who do anything more than shoot their guns a few times, pack the camper, buy beer and food and head out of town. This includes the people who live around me in the mountains. (I obviously haven\'t met those Patricia refer to).

I don\'t know you and get the impression you aren\'t like that, so I now have three people on my list - you and Randy and Steve. I have nothing against rifle hunters. I will be rifle hunting mulies in November this year. Just my observation that bowhunters and rifle hunters look at the pursuit dramatically differently. BTW, the CO CPW report agrees with my assessment, which determined that today\'s rifle hunters aren\'t willing to go very far off the roads now, often road hunt in vehicles or ATVs, and mostly give up after four or five days, even if they keep hanging around camp.. They cite this behavior as a primary reason they struggle to keep the populations in check, and why in many units we can kill three elk a year.
 
\"cohunter14\" said:
As I read all of this, I am a little shocked by some of the stereotypes rifle hunters have from bow hunters. From the responses here, apparently rifle hunting is easier, doesn\'t require as much dedication, and is filled with a bunch of inconsiderate drunks. I am sorry to hear that this is what people really think of us, because I could easily flip every argument back at bow hunters without even being one. I have heard the stories on here of other hunters claiming a herd for themselves while bow hunting or following someone into the woods to steal their spots. You are going to find these jerks no matter when you hunt. Personally, I have run across one person who was a bit inconsiderate over my 20 years in the woods, but that\'s it. And yes, you will see a rifle hunter enjoying a beverage of their choice in their camp, just like you will see bow hunters doing the same thing.

The truth to the whole scenario is that rifle hunts are just a heck of a lot different than bow hunts. Our biggest difficulty is finding the elk, whereas that isn\'t the difficult thing to do for bow hunters. Once a bow hunter finds elk, their hunt starts. Once a rifle hunter finds elk, their hunt typically ends. So there is a lot of different strategies involved in bow hunting that don\'t necessarily apply to the strategies of rifle hunters. Our biggest hurdle is trying to stay positive and continue on when you haven\'t seen an elk in five days and it feels like there isn\'t one within a 30 mile radius of us. The dedication it takes to continue on each day and cover more and more ground trying to find a solitary bull that is off by himself is very high. I am willing to bet that there are far more bow hunters who fill their tag every year versus rifle hunters. And I don\'t necessarily feel it\'s because the bow hunter hunts harder or is more dedicated.
Click to expand...
well written. Thanks


Sent via Jedi mind trick.
 
Lou, I understand your point and truthfully, I don\'t know a ton of bow hunters outside of forums. And I know that you definitely put the time and effort in, as many do on this forum. But there are also many who don\'t put in the time and effort as well. To group them by what weapon they choose is difficult I think. Everyone knows that you need to be in shape to hunt elk. Everyone also knows that no matter what season you hunt, you will escape most hunters once you get more than a 1/2 mile off the road. I will say that there are far more wilderness and backpack hunters that I hear of during archery season versus rifle, but I would blame the weather on half of that. It is very difficult to plan a hunt that is 5+ miles into the wilderness when you don\'t know if it\'ll be 60 degrees or if there will be a foot of snow.

To touch Swede\'s point of figuring out what helps rifle hunters, I\'ll use Lou\'s point of road hunters. I will admit that there are always road hunters no matter where you hunt during rifle season. I think this is for two reasons: first, as I mentioned before, it is very difficult to stay positive during rifle season when you have no idea if there are elk anywhere around. Opening morning during every season finds every hunter in the woods somewhere. But slowly, I believe these hunters loose the drive to continue pushing on when \"the elk are nowhere to be found this year.\" The second reason I think you see people road hunting is I believe the majority of them believe elk hunting is 90% luck. This all ties into the fact that most hunters that I have seen don\'t understand elk - where they go and what they do when they are pressured. So for most of them, it IS 90% luck, maybe even more!

With all that being said, what do rifle hunters need the most? Strategies on how to find the elk. Lou, your recent article was fantastic for a rifle hunter. More information like that is what rifle hunters are looking for. In our world, everything revolves around finding the elk. And there are many tips and tricks we can give people on that without giving them our exact hunting location. Map studies I believe are great for this. I have started a bunch of those on here, but we don\'t get much for participation. Truthfully, I think that\'s because the \'where to look\' is just a small piece of the pie for a bow hunter, whereas it\'s 90% for a rifle hunter (or is luck the 90% part :dk: ) :lol:

I enjoy the conversation with you all, and Patricia, you know I am never going to be offended by something you say. Sometimes it\'s good to hear more opinions like these so we can get to the real issues and figure out how to help others. I would love to hear other\'s thoughts as well. Lou, I would love to hear more about how your tactics changed when guiding bow hunters versus guiding rifle hunters. Let\'s keep the conversation rolling.
 
Here is a short list of the things I have observed about continuously successful rifle hunters where tags are generally available:
1. There are those that can hunt a ranch where the bulls are all in the field opening morning.
2. There are those that have a passage or hillside they watch opening weekend. The elk travel through that area on their way to a hell hole or a ranch.
3. There are those that figure out where the elk are during the week before the season and keep an eye on them. They may locate several herds, then opening morning they are out before daybreak waiting to move into position. They may have to work to get ahead of other hunters.
4. There are those that know where elk go under pressure and wear out a lot of boot leather hunting those areas where most hunters won\'t go to. This last group are usually young and very physically fit.
 
Thanks for keeping this question alive, Swede, and thanks everyone for the conversation and info. As a bowhunter, I never thought I\'d be asking about rifle season. I\'ve been practicing cow/calf calls, as well as general locator bugles, and have gotten good intel on my unit from others more familiar with it. Should be able to scout this month, and again between archery and muzzleloader seasons.

But now I throw a wrench into things: what if I try to bowhunt during rifle season? (Wearing the requisite hunter orange, of course). Am I putting myself at a disadvantage? Or are there strategies that will help? Part of this question is simply preference, and part is practical---I am having a difficult time getting the hang of a scope and the longer distances. Maybe it\'s just about practice, but I want to be prepared for either weapon.
 
ABQ, I\'m struggling with the same dilemma. Didn\'t draw my usual plains archery unit, but got a second-choice rifle muley license for late November. I\'m not a rifle hunter and feel weird with a gun. But it\'s only a five day season and weather can be drastic. So I\'m thinking of splitting the difference and hunting with my father\'s old pre-64 Model 94 .30.30, which was his gun that never killed a deer.

I would do a good article with that, but I\'m a bowhunter at heart.

Good luck with whatever you choose, but don\'t unnecessarily handicap yourself. Elk hunting after the rut is not easy.
 
ABQ, like Lou said, you don\'t want to handicap yourself by not having the opportunity to hunt with a rifle. If I remember correct, your season is fairly short (like 5 days?). If that\'s the case, I would recommend trying to figure out the gun. It will probably be difficult enough to find the elk, let alone to get a shot up close. If you could have a range of 200 yards with a rifle, you obviously increase your chances of filling your tag. But you could also try using a bow the first few days and then switching if it doesn\'t work out.

As a side note, what are the issues you are having with the gun? Maybe we can help you out with some tidbits there as well.
 
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