Advanced Elk Calling

[Swede]

A little over a week ago the Elk Calling 101 thread was started. In that thread was a request for simple elk calling strategies. Now I want to go in a different direction.
Often there are posts on different forums, where hunters claim incredible success by using Buy Me elk calls, or following this or that strategy. I was reading a post the other day where a fellow claimed great success using a certain calling plan.
When I read these statements, sometimes my gut says this claim of greatness is exaggerated or is totally bogus. Most of us know what works in one area may not be any good in another.
What I would like to do here is find out how you separate the genuine from the phony. More than that how does a novice determine the difference. Wouldn\'t it be nice to have a truth meter to gage the level of truth in claims made by hunters?

 

[cnelk]

Swede
Nice to see you back. Obviously you had some time to think of a good topic for a post.

Regarding truth of claims by hunters.
I think truth is more prevalent in hunters than in fishermen

 

[Jaquomo]

Hmmm, short \"vacation\", Swede! Glad you made it back safe and sound.

Any sound will work for elk some of the time. We used to use wooden flutes from the import store and coiled gas pipe, and I\'m sure that would still work today in some situations. I\'ve had bulls bugle when I shut off an ATV, and called one in to 20 yards while hiding behind my red ATV. It\'s not about the \"truth\", but about how often it\'s the truth. One guy who strings together 14 different calls, starting with a \"three-legged cow with a stillborn calf\", transitioning to a \"2 year old bull with only one descended testicle\" call, etc.. and kills a bull or two may have had just as much success by blowing through a blade of grass and popping a couple sticks. But if he believes it, it\'s the truth to him.

I believe elk make so many different sounds that overcomplicating it is counterproductive, and generally confusing to all but the guy who invented and named that call sequence. If you need to consult a book or an app in the woods to figure out what to say, it\'s too complicated. IMO, you need to master only a few basic calls. More important is knowing when to use them, and when not to, and how to set up for a shot after you call to an animal.

For bugles: A locator bugle, a challenge bugle (which for me is an exact mimic of the bull\'s tone, key, meter, pitch and timing), and a small bull \"irritation\" bugle. Chuckles, whines, grunts, groans, and moans are all sprinkles on the cupcake that can help close the deal.

Cow calls: Generic cow-calf herd talk, lost cow, estrous call, and an irritated cow being harassed by a subordinate bull.

Other calls - popping sticks, raking branches, hooves hitting logs, splashing in a wallow, and a hard popping grunt to stop them for a shot.

Most important - the \"Shut the heck up\" call. Probably 80% of the true herd bulls I\'ve killed (or should have killed) were taken by locating them, shutting up, and moving in quietly for a close range ambush of some sort. OTOH, around 90% of the subordinate bulls I\'ve killed or passed up came from calling. Not sure what that says, except that satellite bulls are a LOT easier to call into bow range than honest-to-gosh herd bulls during the rut.

 

[ORelksniper]

Jaquomo says, \"I believe elk make so many different sounds that overcomplicating it is counterproductive, and generally confusing to all but the guy who invented and named that call sequence. If you need to consult a book or an app in the woods to figure out what to say, it\'s too complicated. IMO, you need to master only a few basic calls. More important is knowing when to use them, and when not to, and how to set up for a shot after you call to an animal.\"

IMO, that statement is the truth. There is a lot of BS floating around the world of elk hunting and some people have found ways to financially capitalize on a hunters desperation to kill and be a 10%er.

There is no magic bugle, or choreographed set of plays, that will make you an elk killing machine. Although, I personally have had great success with the \"descended testicle\" call. That DVD will be available for sale next month.

Okay, the cynical and sleep deprived old elk hunter is signing off for now.

Glad you\'re back, Swede.

 

[Deertick]

Elk hunting in general, and the elk hunting industrial-complex in specific, are proof of the danger of anecdotal evidence.

On another note, how do I nominate Jaquomo\'s reference to a 3-legged cow with a stillborn calf and a 2 year-old bull with cryptorchidism for the funniest post I\'ve ever read anywhere ever?

 

[Swede]

Tick & Jacuomo: I was gone to do some grand=parenting with a couple future elk hunters. One is 5 now and the other is 2. You may be 100% right on your comments about antidotal evidence. Maybe there is a one elk wonder that got a bull while huffing and slapping his face. BTW: Jacuomo, those bulls with a damaged testicle usually have a deformed antler. At least that is what I have read. I have not personally evaluated that claim, but you know I would never doubt what someone has written. lol
I can not be sure, but I suspect total fraud is being committed by some that claim huge success. Great success can legitimately be claimed by a very few hunters. I will never reach that lofty height, but some folks making that claim post no pictures or stories to support even meager claims to success. Per se, I have no problem with foolish claims, but if we are to be true mentors to aspiring elk hunters, it is counter productive to have nonsensical and dishonest assertions intermingled with the legitimate, as though they are equal.
If I did a rain dance one afternoon and it rains the next day, I could claim I made it rain. If I tried that dance twice, and it worked both times, I might believe my own claims. I suppose the same is true with elk tactics and calling. Anyway, Jac. and Tick if you claim you are getting a lot of elk by beating yourself on the head with a stick until you yelp, I may ask you to quantify the success you have achieved with this great technique.

 

[Deertick]

Maybe there is a one elk wonder that got a bull while huffing and slapping his face.

Hey, I resemble that comment!

Only in my case, it was ... wait for it ... a treestand hunt!

I sat in that tree for about 45 minutes, a bull walked in, and I killed him. Opening day. \"One-elk-wonder\", indeed!

And yet, after all the high-fives with myself, I have to admit ... it could\'ve been luck.

I had a professor who used to say: \"The plural of \'anecdote\' is not \'data\'.\"

Another way of (scientifically) stating it is: \"You can\'t extrapolate from anything where n=1.\"

But that\'s the neat thing about hunting ... n always equals 1 ... there\'s never a situation which is repeatable while only changing ONE variable (like a calling sequence). Which means we\'re never talking about \"proof\" or even \"compelling evidence\" ... we\'re just trading anecdotes and hypothesizing from woefully little data.

I will say this, though, and please note my perspective as a non-silver-back like you and Lou ... those instructors, like Corey, and Chris Roe, do do one thing for us newbies ... and that\'s provide a starting point that feels like confidence. They provide something to \"push off of\". Otherwise, a newbie can feel like there is no place to start.

I\'m not saying that the base that they construct is a good one, but they provide some good ideas on getting inside the brains of you older elk hunters.

I kind of have to laugh at some of the comments from you silver-backed grey-beards as you poo-poo the complexity and humbly state that you don\'t do anything all that complicated ... \"Just a few calls\" ... I think you more experienced hunters may really perceive that that is the case, but in reality, I bet there\'s a lot more analysis going on as you dissect a calling situation that you realize. It\'s just that you\'ve done it so many times, you don\'t even realize you\'re doing it.

It\'s kind of like my old barn cat the other day as I was watching him teach a young cat how to hunt. \"It\'s not complicated ... you just sneak up, pounce, and kill the mouse. You\'re making it too hard!\" Meanwhile the new cat scratches his head. (That\'s me). But that old cat -- he doesn\'t realize that it\'s NOT that easy, and it takes a LOT of mouse-chasing to learn when to pounce, when to wait, and how to swish your tail just right to distract them.

Old cat: \"You don\'t need to know all those tail-swishing methods. I do the same thing every time.\"

New cat: \"No, you don\'t. You think you do, but I\'ve seen it. There are subtleties.\"

Confidence is worth a lot, though. And confidence generally only comes from experience. But occasionally, it can come from \"training\", which is sort of like fake-experience. And so the instructive DVD that I\'d like to see would have experienced elk hunters in situations where they are calling and moving in response to elk and explaining in real time why they chose this call, or why they set up here, or advanced there.

In other words ... I really do understand why some of you kind of giggle at \"play-books\" ... but what instructional platform can you replace it with?

 

[WW]

Swede wrote (What I would like to do here is find out how you separate the genuine from the phony. More than that how does a novice determine the difference. Wouldn\'t it be nice to have a truth meter to gage the level of truth in claims made by hunters?)

AMEN brother! Get that truth meter out and turn it on. Some guys in the elk hunting business are real super nice and helpful people. Then again, there are others that are on an ego trip that is out of this world. One in particular even claims to be, \"The leading expert in the elk hunting field\"! That\'s a pretty bold statement. Go ahead, Google it up and read what it says for yourself.

I wonder if this thread might better be titled Simplified Elk Calling instead of Advanced Elk Calling. You need to get back to the basics and start calling in elk instead of selling and buying products.

You have to go to Grade School before you go to College!

 

[mtnmutt]

For bugles: A locator bugle, a challenge bugle (which for me is an exact mimic of the bull\'s tone, key, meter, pitch and timing), and a small bull \"irritation\" bugle. Chuckles, whines, grunts, groans, and moans are all sprinkles on the cupcake that can help close the deal.

Cow calls: Generic cow-calf herd talk, lost cow, estrous call, and an irritated cow being harassed by a subordinate bull.

Other calls - popping sticks, raking branches, hooves hitting logs, splashing in a wallow, and a hard popping grunt to stop them for a shot.

Most important - the \"Shut the heck up\" call.

How about this...

Without getting complicated, take one \"call\" in each of the above categories and give a 1-2 sentence of when and where you use the \"call\"? Don\'t over think it. I have a simple mind and need a simple list that my sleep deprived brain can handle on opening day. You may add throwing a rock in the \"Other calls\" category or add another item to another category, however, keep it simple for us newbies.

You veteran elk hunters are likely subconsciously choosing your next move because you have decades of experience. So glad you do not charge for your services

 

[Swede]

Using Tick\'s analogy of the cats, I would say the old cat doesn\'t get the mouse every time either. The difference in part between the two cats is that the old cat says, \"well that did not work this time.\" If he tries it a couple more times on that same mouse he realizes there is at least one mouse that is wise to him and will devise another plan or moves on to a different herd of mice.
Together we are seeing the core problem here. I think Tick, Mtnmut and others have explained it well. The Wright Bros. did not design or build the Boeing 777. Theirs was the most basic machine that could fly. I think that is where solid elk hunting practices begin. As we learn, we develop and add more and more until we have a fuller tool chest of techniques to use when going after elk. I know just as Tick\'s old cat knew he could show the younger cat the way, so can people like WW and cnelk give us insight into what can and has worked at elk hunting. I believe they can also give us confidence. As someone wrote, confidence is very valuable. Just as a competent bicyclist does not have training wheels on their bike, a competent elk hunter does not carry a book into the forest to consult when they hear an elk bugle. I am in no ways opposed to training wheels or books. I have read many and even wrote a small one. They have their place. I just want to take the next step with you and I don\'t want us bogged down with endless gibberish.

 

[cnelk]

I realize everyone\'s time is valuable, and not everyone can scout in the summer, but I would like to emphasize that knowing your elk country is just as valuable as \"Advanced Elk Calling\"
There are so many tell tale signs left over from previous years\' rut that can tell you where good locations on where to use those \'Advanced Elk Calling\' techniques.

Its like baking a cake.
You need eggs, flour, sugar and oil and spice.

Eggs = Terrain
Flour = Sign
Oil = Calling
Spice - Emotion

 

[Jaquomo]

Mtnmutt, I will do tha when I get a chance, hopefully later today.

Had a wonderful dinner/beers with cnelk and his sig-other, and Mr. and Mrs. Deertick on Saturday. We had a great time and discussion. As I suggested to Mr. Deertick, a good elk hunter really only needs to know two calls - a hard voice grunt to stop the elk for the shot, and the one where you dial your buddies to help you pack it out..