Calling Elk vs. Not Calling Elk

[JohnFitzgerald]

Participants
Pro Side: WW, JohnFitzgerald, and Tdiesel
Con Side: CNELK, Swede, and Ol\' Arky

Rules
1) No personal attacks.
2) Only post when it\'s your turn.
3) Take the time you need to post your statement.


Posting order
1 - Swede
2 - WW
3 - CNELK
4 - JohnFitzgerald
5 - Ol\' Arky
6 - Tdiesel
7 - Ol\' Arky
8 - Tdiesel
9 - CNELK
10 - JohnFitzgerald
11 - Swede
12 - WW

 

[Swede]

Think of calling as a hammer. There are many types of hammers. In a carpenters tool box or truck, there may be several. Some are heavy and some light. One is perfect for framing and the other is used only to drive tacks. Not every task requires any hammer.
The trouble with calling elk is, that many hunters think the #1 go to tool, is something like the framing hammer even thought they don\'t understand its use. In this case it is a bugle with a double or triple reed diaphragm. Like the framing hammer, they want they biggest baddest thing they can get their hands on. Because the bugles have been advertised so much, so much has been written about them, and videos produced demonstrating how wonderful they are, many hunters believe a bugle as the big key to success. It is not the key to any success. Knowledge, patience and perseverance are. In fact in the wrong area and in the wrong hands the call, especially the bugle are a detriment. Every hunter needs to learn the job, and the proper use of their available tools.
No disrespect to anyone, but why do you think big name hunters are promoting them so much, and going on ranches to demonstrate their usefulness? I was told one went on a hunt in a draw only GMU in SW Oregon, where the elk are a little more accessible to the public. When it was over, he swore never to return.
I truly appreciate our sponsors . As individuals I believe they are great. Most of them are like tool makers. Still, in the end I would like to see every hunter put in five years hunting elk, before they get their first call. After that they need to spend a couple of years learning to make effective cow calls. Then graduate up to simple well executed bugles. I guess what I am saying is most people should put their calls in the garbage can and learn to hunt elk. After you have taken a few elk without a call, then add it to your tool box.

 

[WW]

Calling is the ultimate way to hunt elk. Show me anyone that wouldn\'t dearly love to be able to challenge big herd bull and have him come charging in to less than 10 yards wanting to kick your tale! Ultimate excitement, ultimate thrill, and something you will live over and over for the rest of your live!

Calling is a skill that may take years to learn properly. Knowing what to say, how to say it, when to say it, why you say it, and in what situation to use certain sounds is the key to good calling. If you can\'t master these things, maybe you would be better off sitting in a tree overlooking a waterhole or wallow for days on end, hoping something might accidently pass your way.

There are many good calls out there and many good grunt tubes. Many times people ask, \"What is the best call\"? Well, the answer to that question is really very simple. The very best call is the one that works best for you.....!

I\'m going to cut this response short for now. According to the rules I\'ll get another chance to respond later. I just want Swede to know that I have way more than one hammer in my toolbox and MANY call sounds in my bag of tricks. :wave:

 

[cnelk]

No one mentioned that this debate is for archery only [but many assumed].
Many more elk have been shot by NOT using calls than there have been using calls, especially using rifles.

But referring to archery, there are many successful scenarios where calling elk isnt necessary.
Spot and Stalk is one very effective method.
Using the wind or terrain to gain an advantage or get close is of the utmost importance.

Of course sitting over a wallow, trail or other spot that concentrates your quarry is effective too, but if not hunting that way,
a hunter needs to use stealth. A form of hunting that is lost.
It was mentioned that it takes years to learn to call, I would counter that it takes the equal amount of time to learn to move quietly thru the woods.

Elk are a vocal, social animal.
Get into the elk woods and use predatory skills to find them and kill them.
Without calls

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

When talking about calling for elk as a tactic, one must differentiate between commercialized information and the truth (not the Primos Truth). The struggle starts when non-callers define a generalized group and lump every caller into it. But in fact, we need to talk about two separate groups, those who understand the elk language and those who don?t.

Companies put out ?information? and structure their sales pitch to entice hunters. Unfortunately this information may not necessarily be true and may just be a ploy for profit. Face it, hunters want easy answers and they are willing to pay for it. But those answers can at times give a hunter a false sense of empowerment. And in fact can blur the reality of the situation. So what do hunters do when this information fails to get them an elk, they fall for it again and buy more information because ?that? is what?s going to make them a better hunter. It?s a vicious cycle that makes companies richer and gives true callers a bad name.

Bill has mentioned on another thread that others should start listening to Big Dan and Troy Bungay. Why, because their information is not commercialized. That is about the most truthful statement I?ve heard in a while.

So this debate is ?calling for elk? vs. ?not calling for elk?. Yes, both have their place and both can be very successful. I choose to call because I like to make something happen. Having a lack of patience is why I don?t wait for them to come to me. But to say in general that calling for elk is a detriment to a hunting area, is an incorrect statement. Non- callers always talk about times that calling really botched a situation. That to me is a debate on ?commercialized calling? vs. ?not calling for elk?.

Calling for elk is a tactic just like all others. And I do think true callers do have a higher success rate. Please don?t blame calling itself but blame commercialized calling.

 

[Ol' Arky]

Well, well, well.... It appears that even the callers are sayin\' what I have to say... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I kinda disagree with John on one point...

But to say in general that calling for elk is a detriment to a hunting area, is an incorrect statement.

BAD callin\' or someone callin\' that doesn\'t have a clue how to call does have a advirse effect on elk or any other critter in the area...

I would think 90% of all elk hunters have no idea of how, where and what to say or when to say it... Thus it would be best for 90% of elk hunters to say nothin\'...

I can\'t elk call very good, can\'t duck call very good either but have been known to call in a few of both from time to time... But I\'ve learned over the years what to say, when, where and how to say it ... Ducks more so than elk... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

As for callin\' elk when huntin\'... Naw, just leave it to the folks that know what to say when, where and how to do it...

 

[Tdiesel]

Calling should be just the same as any other aspect of hunting elk. Practice and lean as much as you can about it. I see a lot are directed at calling with wrong calls. Calling is an art form I would say and it does take time to figure it out heck not really sure anyone truly has it figured out there are no Set rules in calling.
The reason so many videos and books and calls are sold is because they are effective. As cnelk mentioned I\'m sure a lot of elk have been killed without calls I don\'t know the numbers but I would say on the reverse of that how many have been killed because of calls? I know in my own experience there have been elk that I never would have even had the chance of killing if it wouldn\'t have been for calling. plus as everyone asks what to take first year elk hunting calls are always on the list. Calling is another tool in the tool box and just like tools the more you use them the more proficient you get with them.
I would never discourage anyone from putting another tool in the box. I do feel though that people need to practice with the tool and become proficient with it. I do believe there is a difference between calling and simply making sounds in the woods with an elk call. Just as some people simply go for a hike with a weapon and others are actually hunting. I think when any beginner thinks of elk hunting he dreams of calling and big bulls coming in screaming . that\'s the allure of calling You can make your dreams come true.

 

[Ol' Arky]

I waited for my turn a while and now I have another so close together... :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

I for one think there is no winner or losser in any debate, just folks that disagree... In the case of this debate it appears that we mostly agree to a point...

I shot all my bullets the 1st time around but here\'s a good question for all of since ya all got a chnace to think bout it amd reply if ya want...

If ya were forced to use just one tool in ya tool box while elk huntin\' which would it be???? Would it be a call??? OR would it be the weapon ya brung with ya????

In my case if I was elk huntin\' it would not be a call... It would be a weapon.. No matter which I had...

Reason: I would be huntin\' elk for meat not just for the pleasure it gives me to call um in...

There\'s also certain times elk call just don\'t work because of excess huntin\' pressure and most bulls have heard it all...

The same applies to me now duck huntin\' since I no longer elk hunt... But in this case it would be my calls because I gain more satisfaction from callin\' ducks into the timber than I do from killin\'...

Final thought... To call or not to call while elk huntin\'???? Ya be the judge since ya each know ya own abilities....

One thin\' I\'ve never been accused of is bein\' a good debator....

 

[Tdiesel]

In looking at calling vs not calling I truly believe elk can be killed either way in any area. I will agree in some areas it would be much more difficult than others but for me I find something very satifying when I call elk in and that is why I choose to call. Knowing that I fooled this elk into thinking I\'m another elk and making him so mad he comes in slobbering over himself is a great thrill that I truley enjoy. On years I didn\'t archery hunt I usually would take a couple days to go hike and bugle bulls in most of these never could find that other bull as when they came in we would simple huddle down and watch. In my opinion if a caller is good enough I don\'t know if there is a more efficient way to hunt elk. Troy put up a thread a bit ago about doing it in rifle season, we have also called and killed bulls in rifle season. If the elk believe you are another elk your bound to get elk. Calling is efficient in the fact that elk will usually do half the work to allow you to get close and ultimately a shot. Is it the only way to hunt certainly not but I\'m not sure if there is a more exciting way.

I\'ll have calls with me this fall hoping to use them as I didn\'t draw a deer tag though I may have to use some stalking techniques just to stay in practice good luck everyone.

 

[cnelk]

Im sure many of us have read the stories of consistently successful bowhunters where they do not call at all and they kill herd bulls.
Their technique is to silently shadow a herd.
When the herd bull makes his rounds to check on cows, a shot presents itself.
It takes patience, and stealth.
No calls at all to give away your presence

Fact - Killing elk without using calls can be done

 

[Swede]

I am going to be gone scouting for about a week, so I want to jump in here and give my closing statement. I know it gives J.F. and WW the double last word, but they need all the advantage they can get.
Calls in the hands of a skilled hunter are an asset. They can be used to take advantage of vulnerabilities in elk. Calls in the hands of hunters not very familiar with elk traits, are actually a liability in at least two ways. 1. It keeps you from learning the basics of becoming a skilled elk hunter. You have this toy to blow on and believe you are a Corey Jacobsen or Troy Bungay. You will hear elk call back and may get one to come close, but that is as far as it ever gets. 2. You educate the elk that become harder and harder to find and to kill. They have learned that there is a hunter behind a lot of those calls.
The truth is most hunters would do well to learn elk traits and how to hunt them. Only when you have mastered those things, and have proven it by bringing down a few elk, should you introduce yourself as an elk.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

We learn to check wind, not talk, and shot placement. If hunters fail on any of these, don\'t we educate elk? Should we ask everyone who isn\'t a skilled hunter to with-stain from hunting? Calling is just one more tool that we use to kill elk. As you study how to hunt elk, calling should always be included. Even if it\'s just simple cow calls. I\'ve never seen an effective elk caller say....nah I\'m not bringing my calls this time.

 

[WW]

Well, it looks like I get to wrap this discussion up. There have been many good thoughts on both sides of the table. And actually very few bad thoughts, if any at all.

Personally, I am a caller. If I couldn\'t call elk, I probably wouldn\'t be bowhunting them. I\'d probably just go out and pop a cow every other year or so with my rifle for some freezer meat.

Also, when you figure in all the rifle hunters, there have been way more elk harvested without the use of a call. So if you get satisfaction from shooting something at 300-400 yards away, more power to you. But that just doesn\'t turn my crank. Guess that is why my gun has been
in the safe collecting dust all these years.

Instead, I get my kicks from beating elk at their own game on their own turf. And calling or talking to them is part of my game plan. I\'m a part time hunter chasing full time elk.

My suggestion to anyone just starting out that wants to call elk in would be to find yourself a mentor that is in the consistent 10% group and have them show you the ropes. Guys that go out there and tute their flute are just making it harder for themselves as well as everyone else in the area. If you going to do it, you might as well learn to do it right. And even if you can make all the elk sounds, you still have to make the right sounds for given situations.

So there you have it from me. In a nut shell, there is always more than one way to skin a cat or hunt elk. Be wise and choose the method that you think will work best for you.

I have enjoyed this discussion. But for future ones, if someone would like to step up to the plate and take my place, I sure would appreciate it. Thanks to all that contributed and all the on lookers. I hope there was plenty of useful comments for you all to sink you elk hunting teeth into.