Challenge Bugle - Help Me Understand

[JohnFitzgerald]

I\'m not trying to be confrontational and I truly don\'t get why some call it that. I need help understanding.

Rarely, but I have heard what others call a Challenge Bugle. The growls were very distinct and on the \'nasty\' end of the bugle spectrum.

1) When a bull gives just a growl, it\'s a warning.
2) When a bull gives a bugle, he\'s announcing his position.
3) When he gives a growl followed by a bugle, it\'s a Challenge Bugle

Kinda makes more sense that it\'s a Warning Bugle? (ie I\'m warning you that I\'m right here).

Why would a herd bull ever invite a satellite to a challenge?

Is a warning the same as a challenge? Things just don\'t add up so please tell me what you think.

 

[bowhunter]

Sounds like you answered your own question. It is a warning bugle to stay away. I would say a satelite ,or hunter, coming in and giving a growly bugle would be a chalange.

 

[BTL]

I look a scenario I had two years ago while glassing a drainage. I could see cows and one bull work their way into the timber. After a short while a \"location type bugle\" rang out from the opposite side. Shortly after, another bull sounded off with a deeper, growling type bugle. The distance far ridge bull now sounded off again, only this time it sounded more restless, higher pitch and almost like he was in search mode. The deeper bugle, like you describe, now had a growl to it with a higher scream to follow. This continued on and bugles became closer and closer. The bugles seemed to get more of a growl with a short scream, now followed by grunts. For me, I don\'t know whether it was for the cows or the bull intruding. With that said; I lean towards the bull was showing his dominance towards the cows near by and intimidating, or warning, the distant bull. His intensity grew as the intruder came in for a look. Emotionally speaking towards the other bull and yelling at him to stay away or else.
The argument can be had to say this bull was showing off to his cows near by, but whats the point when you have them close already. We all know elk can smell extremely well, so my theory on it would be the bull on the other ridge could smell or hear other elk. Reaching out and asking the elk where they are so he can find them. I believe the cows could answer a bugle for location as well. When you are in competition for cows, and hear another bugle, his urgency picked up and the grudge match started between the two bulls. I think bulls will bugle to cows. But not \"yell\" or \"scream\" at them.(To much intensity for the ladies, they are sensitive :lol: ). These bulls were Challenging each other with their nastiest bugles and if that doesn\'t work, the mitts come off and its time to fight.

 

[otcWill]

Sounds like you are just provoking some thought and positive conversation on this one John? I think it would take a lifetime of observing elk in their natural environment and a Phd to even acquire an opinion that would be statistically significant on this topic. We all develop a \"feel\" for what they are saying and maybe more how they are going to react from being around elk but I don\'t think we\'ll ever know quite what exactly they are saying. I just try to guess their mood based on what I hear and make a plan accordingly, sorta based on the level of intensity more than anything else. I\'m not really concerned with decoding the message persay. I will say, for those that are trying to earn a phd in elk language, Chris Roe of Roe Hunting Resources has the best stuff out there with the degrees to back it up.

 

[WW]

Sounds like you are just provoking some thought and positive conversation on this one John? I think it would take a lifetime of observing elk in their natural environment and a Phd to even acquire an opinion that would be statistically significant on this topic. We all develop a \"feel\" for what they are saying and maybe more how they are going to react from being around elk but I don\'t think we\'ll ever know quite what exactly they are saying. I just try to guess their mood based on what I hear and make a plan accordingly, sorta based on the level of intensity more than anything else. I\'m not really concerned with decoding the message persay. I will say, for those that are trying to earn a phd in elk language, Chris Roe of Roe Hunting Resources has the best stuff out there with the degrees to back it up.

Well put Will! I think JF is over thinking it again. After over 35 years of elk hunting, there are only a couple of things I know for sure about elk language.

1) Every time a bull makes a sound, regardless of what sound it is, it tells me where he is.

2) Elk can not speak in a language as we know it. So, I don\'t drive myself crazy trying to interpret what a bull is saying or doing into human language. Instead, there are four things I look for when encountering a vocal bull. Tone, intensity, emotion, and reaction. I don\'t speak Spanish, French, German, or Wapiti. But by listening for these four things I can get a pretty good idea about what is going on! Simple as that!!! :wtf:

 

[razorback]

I just wished I had enough experience hearing bugles to give an answer. This fall on opening morning I heard one bull. He bugled about 3-5 times that I could hear followed by chuckles. I never could locate him. I assumed he was moving his cows somewhere. The other bull I heard was on a wallow that Terry and I found. We were pretty close to that bull. When Terry cow called the bull first gave some soft chuckles only. He later bugled but farther away. He never seemed to get aggrsive and I still don\'t understand why. We were sitting on a wallow that he had obviously just visited within the last 4 hours. I have replayed that scenario over and over. Maybe I should have bugled at him. Maybe I should have went over to the wallow and splashed water and raked trees. Maybe I should have followed him. I think I choked a little, first time being that close to a bull. Sorry to hijack the thread I should be working but my mind\'s in the mountains right now.

 

[Deertick]

Sounds like you are just provoking some thought and positive conversation on this one John? I think it would take a lifetime of observing elk in their natural environment and a Phd to even acquire an opinion that would be statistically significant on this topic. We all develop a \"feel\" for what they are saying and maybe more how they are going to react from being around elk but I don\'t think we\'ll ever know quite what exactly they are saying. I just try to guess their mood based on what I hear and make a plan accordingly, sorta based on the level of intensity more than anything else. I\'m not really concerned with decoding the message persay. I will say, for those that are trying to earn a phd in elk language, Chris Roe of Roe Hunting Resources has the best stuff out there with the degrees to back it up.

Well put Will! I think JF is over thinking it again. After over 35 years of elk hunting, there are only a couple of things I know for sure about elk language.

1) Every time a bull makes a sound, regardless of what sound it is, it tells me where he is.

2) Elk can not speak in a language as we know it. So, I don\'t drive myself crazy trying to interpret what a bull is saying or doing into human language. Instead, there are four things I look for when encountering a vocal bull. Tone, intensity, emotion, and reaction. I don\'t speak Spanish, French, German, or Wapiti. But by listening for these four things I can get a pretty good idea about what is going on! Simple as that!!! :wtf:

That there makes a lot of sense!

And maybe it is the last word on elk-talking.

 

[elkmtngear]

I\'ve heard bulls do it, and come in running, stomping, looking for me...seriously ticked off. It\'s usually always when I\'m pretty close to them when I call (I\'ve had them respond this way to cow calls, spike squeals, and my own \"challenge bugles\").

What good would it do to classify it at a distance? I\'m still going to respond the same way, regardless of the \"type\" of bugle...I\'m gonna try to get as close as possible without being detected. Then I will attempt to induce the behavior I described above (depending on the situation).

I think Will is spot on with my way of thinking...I\'m going by how the situation \"feels\"...and trying to assess the bull\'s mood/ intentions on the fly.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

And I think some of you under think so I tend to go with BTL and bowhunter on this one.

Many times I\'ve heard new hunters talk about how they received a \"Challenge Bugle\" so they ran in and tried to meet that bulls challenge with the nastiest bugle they can muster. That should work every time right? It\'s the title of the bugle so it must be so! The bull is challenging them so getting in close and challenging them right back is going to bring the bull just RUNNING in. Truth, many times bull slips out the back door with his cows.

Is it over thinking to want to teach newbies that titles might be incorrect. I\'m not one to sit around and pat myself on the back and say oh well more elk for me. If one can define the difference between a Warning Bugle and a Challenge Bugle, maybe the newbie might just stop and think before charging in. If there wasn\'t so much misinformation out there, then sure we could never worry about it. Does it really matter that the bull is really challenging or warning? Guess that\'s a matter of opinion. And good luck telling that to a newbie who insists that this new Challenge Bugle he learned is the solve all and will guarantee a monster bull!

Is it a Challenge Bugle or a Warning Bugle, who the hell knows. It comes down to a matter of opinion. So I guess well just let these newbies keep failing and then in 10 years they\'ll finally get it.

I hope that was not the last word...because I enjoy hearing everyone\'s opinion.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

I just wished I had enough experience hearing bugles to give an answer. This fall on opening morning I heard one bull. He bugled about 3-5 times that I could hear followed by chuckles. I never could locate him. I assumed he was moving his cows somewhere. The other bull I heard was on a wallow that Terry and I found. We were pretty close to that bull. When Terry cow called the bull first gave some soft chuckles only. He later bugled but farther away. He never seemed to get aggrsive and I still don\'t understand why. We were sitting on a wallow that he had obviously just visited within the last 4 hours. I have replayed that scenario over and over. Maybe I should have bugled at him. Maybe I should have went over to the wallow and splashed water and raked trees. Maybe I should have followed him. I think I choked a little, first time being that close to a bull. Sorry to hijack the thread I should be working but my mind\'s in the mountains right now.

With rut, it\'s always about the cows. Elk will try to gain every cow, but not at the risk of losing one they already have. His cows were on the move so he\'s going to follow them. But it sounds like he was interested in this \"new\" cow because he was still trying to bring you in as he left. Next time, give him a reason to react. Many different tactics could accomplish this. Because he returned your cow calls with chuckles, you had him hooked. You just needed to reel him in by forcing him to show his hand!

 

[razorback]

That\'s interesting. I thought he sounded like a small bull and maybe afraid. What would have made him come in? More excited cow talk?

 

[cnelk]

Steven
I don\'t the details of the bull you encountered near the wallow, but it has been my experience it is very very difficult to call an elk back to where it has just been.

 

[razorback]

I should have chased him. That\'s what I\'ll try next year. At least I was close to him though! You guys would probably laugh but I seriously thought I was going to put an arrow in him that evening.

 

[cnelk]

Not a laughing matter when thinking about arrowing an elk.
What you experienced has happened to many, including myself.
You think you\'re gonna bring in this elk and stick it and all the time the elk isn\'t even coming your way
Just part of the learning game

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

I should have chased him. That\'s what I\'ll try next year. At least I was close to him though! You guys would probably laugh but I seriously thought I was going to put an arrow in him that evening.

It happends to the best of us!

Tactics depend on time of year and whether he was a herd bull or not. One can choose to deploy simple or aggressive tactics. It sounds like it was early so I would have chosen very simple tactics. Maybe follow him and give simple cow calls as you go. Lots of ground noise like stomping and branch breaking. If that doesn\'t work, you could ramp it up by giving the impression the cow is being hooked by another bull. You could also swing a hunter around to parallel or get in front, but that one is dependent on how fast the bull is moving.

Another tactic is you could have introduced bulls sound into the mix. But be warned, this could back fire because if he was a herd bull he might just push his cows faster.

Early season I like to stick with simple bull sounds instead of cow sounds. Low chuckles and location bugles. Combine that with tree raking and lots of other ground noise plays very heavily on an elks curiosity.

p.s. Not all herd bulls sound big, not all satellite bulls sound small, not all big bulls have cows, and smaller bulls can act as a herd bull.

My 2-cents.