Chuckles and Grunts?

J

JohnFitzgerald

New member
Mar 31, 2014
1,108
Chuckles and grunts, are they the same? We\'ve talked about intensity of elk vocalizations. And if you listen closely, grunts sound like intense chuckles don\'t they? Chuckles are for cows and grunts are for bulls? And the in between is for ........? Sorry it just doesn\'t fit for me. What fits for you? I\'m willing to change my opinion if someone explains it better.
 
Lets talk about this on the next chat. I pretty much explained it to you on the phone. But I see you need a little more convincing . I have a few more things to add to what I told you.
 
\">>>---WW---->\" said:
Lets talk about this on the next chat. I pretty much explained it to you on the phone. But I see you need a little more convincing . I have a few more things to add to what I told you.
Click to expand...
Now or do we schedule it?
 
I too would be interested in seeing a better explanation. I have heard the chuckles when I was moving along making cow calls. I clearly understood the chuckles as an invite by the bull to come to him. As to the grunts, I think there could be different meanings, but the situations were totally different.
 
Sorry I missed you and Iccy on the chat. So here is a little additional information that you can take for what it is worth. Just a few things I have noticed in the past 35 or so years of calling to elk.

First of all, let me say that elk are sort of like humans. If you think about the old barber shop quartet, there is always a bass singer and a tenor. And sometimes the littlest guy is often the one with the deeper voice. Not always, but just sometimes. I feel that elk are no different. Each has his own individual voice. So with that in mind, one bull may have deeper or higher sounding grunts and chuckles than the other.

So, how do you tell the two sounds apart?: Grunts are usually deeper, harsher, more demanding and more aggressive sounding. And, and often a little slower and fewer in numbers. Usually, only 2-4 grunts at a time.

Chuckles are usually higher pitched, less demanding, and repeated many times. Maybe 4-8 times if you are counting. And unless you are very good at making these sounds, a chuckle will be much faster than a grunt and most likely much faster than most callers can do it. Basically, when it comes to hunters calling elk, the difference between chuckles and grunts is what separates the men from the boys! :)

You ask about those sounds that are sort of in between chuckles and grunts. Think about everything I said above. (tone, intensity, and the number of times they do it. Go ahead and count them. And remember, there are always just those that have no real meaning at all. They may just be advertising.

Hopefully Troy will chime in here and give us his thoughts.

(Confused yet)!!!! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
 
I\'ve definitely have heard both and the in-betweens. So I know what each sounds like. Sorry, I should have been more specific in my initial question. :). What I want to discuss is whether or not the have opposite meanings? One can\'t get more opposite than chuckles are for call cows and grunts are for warning other bulls.

It has become my opinion that 95% of vocal communication, by bulls during the rut, is directed towards cows. But some communication actually has a dual purpose. Bulls demonstrate to the cows that they are the dominate bull and are the \"one\" to breed them. But, that also shows others bulls that they don\'t deserve the right. A good example of this is bulls trying to out roar each other. And when you cut off a bull bugle with one of you own, they can get really pissed. Why.....because you just took away their right to demonstrate how dominant they are.

So does it make sense that grunts are a warning to others bulls or does it make more sense that grunts are a dominant and aggressive voice to get cows to come or assure them to stay? I just can\'t see any bull showing a challenger any attention unless the challenger gets really close for a battle. Instead, I see them constantly reassuring the cow they are \"it\".

For many species of animals, the females choose the male to breed with. And in many species, the males have their own way of demonstrating their worthiness.

My dos centavos!
 
John I have to admit that I don\'t know if I have ever heard a grunt or not. You have put some good links for allot of different calls on here before but they are spread out in different topics. Could we have one that has links to all the calls you talk about so someone can compare one to another.
 
Sure thing

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKnqLGED9SQ[/youtube]

Grunts: :09
Chuckles: 1:29

But once again, doesn\'t the Grunts sound like Chuckles with just a little more intensity. Maybe not!

jf
 
Thanks John. I have heard this before but i never realized that it was different from a chuckle. I will pay more attention from now on when I here it. I think I just thought they where bulls with higher voice and had a high pitched chuckle.
 
Lots of in betweeners to figure out. The bull at 3:30-3:40 is just about bugled out.
 
I think that video would be great to practice with ... listen, imitate ... listen, imitate.

I find that with all this talk of what sounds mean I end up over-thinking my own bugles. Imitating the real thing ought to bring my bugles back to reality.
 
Occam\'s Razor - Paraphrased means when all things being equal, the simplest explanation is correct.

In my experience I\'ve come to conclude that the elk language is not so complicated that they use sounds directed at just bulls while other sounds are directed at just cows. That to me means elk have the ability to communicate in higher form. Since man has that ability, I think sometimes we project that into the elk we hunt.

So for me I believe in the simplest explanation that during rut, almost all communication by bulls is to attract cows and prove that they are the dominant breeder. Intensity is used to express how dominate the bull is or how dominate he thinks he is. :)

Or is the more complex explanation correct. And that is, they have chuckles which are used to call in cow while grunts are used to warn bulls, even though they are very close sounding. Then there\'s in betweens that could go either away but the elk can tell the difference.

If the elk are that complex, tell me why my thinking is completely wrong. I have my big boy pants on today. :clap: But if you do, explain yourself and your thinking as I\'ve done with my thoughts. :)
 
John: As far as I am concerned you are correct in that thinking. I have become critical of the complex explanations in the last 5-6 years. Still I believe that elk learn to recognize the voices of other elk that are around and become wary of outsiders especially in high pressure areas.. A single sound can serve more than one purpose. I.e. call cows and warn bulls. Consider Corey Jacobson\'s call plan as shown on the video WW posted, and the one Troy of Glacier Mountain Hunting Calls posted here last summer. There may be two cents worth od difference, but they break down to the same basic thing. They just vary in set up a little. They are simple and effective. You will not need Rosetta Stone to learn that language.
 
\">>>---WW---->\" said:
Sorry I missed you and Iccy on the chat. So here is a little additional information that you can take for what it is worth. Just a few things I have noticed in the past 35 or so years of calling to elk.

First of all, let me say that elk are sort of like humans. If you think about the old barber shop quartet, there is always a bass singer and a tenor. And sometimes the littlest guy is often the one with the deeper voice. Not always, but just sometimes. I feel that elk are no different. Each has his own individual voice. So with that in mind, one bull may have deeper or higher sounding grunts and chuckles than the other.

So, how do you tell the two sounds apart?: Grunts are usually deeper, harsher, more demanding and more aggressive sounding. And, and often a little slower and fewer in numbers. Usually, only 2-4 grunts at a time.

Chuckles are usually higher pitched, less demanding, and repeated many times. Maybe 4-8 times if you are counting. And unless you are very good at making these sounds, a chuckle will be much faster than a grunt and most likely much faster than most callers can do it. Basically, when it comes to hunters calling elk, the difference between chuckles and grunts is what separates the men from the boys! :)

You ask about those sounds that are sort of in between chuckles and grunts. Think about everything I said above. (tone, intensity, and the number of times they do it. Go ahead and count them. And remember, there are always just those that have no real meaning at all. They may just be advertising.

Hopefully Troy will chime in here and give us his thoughts.

(Confused yet)!!!! :crazy: :crazy: :crazy:
Click to expand...
I would pretty much echo what WW just said...I guess I might add that, I think Elk Grunts are kinda like an Exclamation point!!! The Bull really wants to make sure you are getting the meaning of what he just said. It shows dominance or threatens it.
Chuckles are faster and in my view usually some sort of invitation. What about those sounds that are not hard thumpy grunts but not quite fast enough to be considered a chuckle??? Well I \'m not sure ... but I then rely on my experience to make my best guess as to the meaning.
I am going out on a limb here and say that I do not think that all chuckles are always directed toward cows. Most of the time but not always.
I had a 5x5 bull bugling and chuckling at me ,but I had not made any cow sounds,just bugles... so IMO he was inviting me to show myself. Now this is just my interpretation. This is not the only time it has happened but ,I remember that one vividly.

I DO NOT think that 95% of all Bull vocalizations during the rut are directed toward the cows. IMO I think that number is too high.( I wonder if I can get a grant to study that???) I realize that opens a can of worms so to speak but, that also is just my opinion. I think that a lot of vocalizations can be directed toward either other bulls or cows. It just depends on the circumstances. In the peak of the rut especially the bulls are bugling warnings and challenges at each other. They do serve a dual purpose IMO... the cows know the bulls are Vocalizing and trying to impress them as well as warn the other bull. So in that sense I think those sounds serve a dual purpose but , I think that the bulls are talking to other bulls. BULLS ALSO SPEAK DIRECTLY TO THE COWS AS WELL FOR SURE... I\'m not sure what the percentage would be?

To illustrate,for instance lets say I hike into a spot 1/2 mile from my truck. I have heard nothing to make me believe that any elk are in the area.
I bugle my version of a location bugle, and a Bull bugles back. Is that bull answering me or talking to his cows? I believe he is answering me,talking directly to me. Depending upon how close I am to him and his girls and his \" mood \" I try to gage the intensity of his bugle back.(Tone ,Intensity and Pitch) Is he telling me we are over here stay away, we are bedded over here or is he yelling at me inferring he will kick my tail if I dare to come closer.
What if he answers my bugle with a bull mew? Sounds like a cow sound but is made by a bull... I have had that happen as well.
It was in late October and I took it to mean Shush or shut up, We are over here.I did not really feel it was an invitation though. Again my own interpretation.

So for me I just try to stick with the basics of Tone , Intensity and Pitch,and watch their body language. Rub a few trees, bugle and make cow sounds that show some intensity, and paint a picture in a bulls mind of a believable situation that will put him close enough for a shot. I just do it over and over enough to make it work.
I will say this... if you can\'t make realistic sounding grunts and chuckles, then do not do them while hunting elk. I think that you will most likely do more harm than good if you want to call in a bull. There is just something HD like with elk grunts and chuckles that really separate real elk from most hunters... I can\'t ever remember hearing crappy grunts and chuckles and have it turn out to be a real bull.
I will admit it is fun to speculate as to what WE think each bull or cow is saying ... and sometimes it seems easy to tell. Other times I guess I don\'t have it all figured out.... Troy Glacier Country Hunting Calls
 
I guess I would see your encounter in a different light. If all you did was bugle, it would makes sense for him to return with his own bugle and chuckles. You are another bull in his neighborhood. He\'s going to broadcast his location and demonstrate he\'s the dominant bull to the cows he has, possible cows you have, or other cows in the area. For the bull, its a competition now.

I\'ve used contact bugles a lot during rut. Many, many herd bulls have returned with their own bugles w/ chuckles. In fact, it very routine for me to hear that type of response. But I\'ve never got the feeling that they we\'re inviting me in. Especially since most spend rut time running satellites off.

So I guess the question arises, are chuckles an invite or an expression of dominance? If your advertising that you are the dominant bull, isn\'t that essentially telling cows that you are \"it\". Essentially inviting them to be with best breeder?

WW - Did you have to mention KISS in the presence of Swede? I expect he\'s right now putting on chapstick! :sick: :help2:
 
\"JohnFitzgerald\" said:
WW - Did you have to mention KISS in the presence of Swede? I expect he\'s right now putting on chapstick!
Click to expand...

Are you kidding me? It has been my understanding they invented that acronym especially for me. You characters should be so honored.
 
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