Elk Hunting Forum - Challenging versus flirting

[Deertick]

OK, it\'s been discussed here that Corey J likes to challenge bulls. He does that, I guess, because, like Still Hunter ... that\'s what his dad taught him.

I\'m not really wanting to discuss what anyone\'s dad taught him in this thread.

I\'d like to know what you are seeing, hearing, and thinking that makes you want to go with a challenge versus a \"softer\" calling routine involving only flirtatious cows.

So, here is our scenario ... there is a bull 200 yards away, and he will be vocal and interactive, and you need to decide to call him to you, or go and challenge him. What helps make your decision?

1. His vocalizations?

2. Time of day?

3. Time of season?

4. The company he keeps?

5. How he reacts to a cow call?

6. How he reacts to a location bugle?

7. Something else

As said, it sounds like Corey ONLY like challenge situations ... that\'s his preference, anyway, and he\'s going to make any \"squarish\" peg fit into that square hole. And, on the other side, we have Still Hunter, who prefers still hunting, and doesn\'t have an interest in calling. Swede will be a tree somewhere, shooting elk we spook because that makes him giggle. (Oh, he likes to pretend to have an interest in calling, but it\'s only to get the rest of us out of our treestands and spook the elk to him).

But the rest of us are in the middle, and we\'ll take either style, if we think it\'ll work. We\'ll even try anything in between.

So, let\'s make a \"scenario\" ... how would we design one that lends itself to \"definitely challenge like Corey\"? How would we design one that lends itself to \"Just keep being soft and cow-y and let him come commit suicide\"?

 

[WW]

Hmmmm! One answer is none of the above. And the other answer is all of the above. Confused yet? :crazy: Actually, I don\'t even think about it all that much. Elk don\'t have the ability to think as we do. Instead, they REACT to just about everything in the world around them.

I can\'t begin to tell you how many times I\'ve been shot out of the saddle when I was learning how to hunt elk. But I did learn pretty dang quick that if you want to win, you don\'t take a knife to gunfight. You need to get on the same playing field as your quarry.

Think about it! When you bugle, depending on the time of year, a bull will REACT. Same goes for other types of sounds you may make. The elk will REACT in different ways. Once this happens you need to REACT to the elk. You sure don\'t want to be caught with your britches down or dialing up an elk program on your I-phone to find out what to do next. Hmmm! Lets see, the bull just did what sounded like a bassackwards Mongolian bugle. I believe that is mentioned in chapter 9, page 112! :lol: :crazy:

And you can\'t always throw all your apples in one basket either. Corey J has one heck of a good, solid, simple plan. But I\'m not following that plan every single day. And I\'ll bet he doesn\'t either. But it is for sure a great starting point.

Learning how and when to REACT is a lesson that takes a long time to develop. And I\'ll bet the 10% guys that kill 80% of the elk consistently REACT rather than sit around thinking about what to do next.

 

[OldMan]

Good answer Bill. being able to react without thinking about it is what all hunters should strive for. It takes lots of first hand experience to get to that point, but it can be done by all with enough dedication.

What can be sweeter than you and the elk reacting to beat each other with no plan in mind. That\'s hunting!

 

[Deertick]

I hear you, I really do ... but the purpose of the forum is to try to impart that knowledge ... all I\'m hearing is \"you\'ll know with experience\".

In other words ... can you put what experience has taught you about \"REACTING\" into words?

 

[Swede]

I would keep it simple. Challenge a bull with cows or one trying to call your cows. To keep things very simple you could go with just cow calls for all other close encounters not including cold calling set ups, and simple advertising.

 

[Deertick]

You\'re a simple man, Swede.

And I definitely mean that as a complement. :clap:

It fits right in with other \"Simple\" approaches:

1. Corey\'s approach
2. Still Hunter\'s still hunt style
3. BigDan\'s challenge-everything-even-your-own-shadow style
4. Swede\'s treestand style

I\'m starting to see that it\'s not so much which style you have, but that you have one -- one that you can adjust, modify, or flat-out depart from -- and that you always start there.

So:

1. Corey likes to find vocal elk
2. Still Hunter likes to find known bedding grounds
3. BigDan likes to find herd bulls vocalizing
4. Swede likes to find water sources in spots other hunters find unlikely

So:

Instead of matching your approach to the elk, try FIRST to match your elk to your preferred approach.
--
The proponents of \"Simplicity\" set the elk up for failure -- they don\'t play by the elk\'s rules.

To them, I\'m sure it does seem like a simple concept. Now I\'m starting to get it.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Deertick - I actually believe one needs to match their approach to the elk. For example, treestand hunting might be the best option in a heavily hunted area like the one Swede hunts. On the flip side, I have an area that is rarely touched by other hunters so simple cold calling works well. Then the main area I hunt would not be so hot for treestand or still hunting because it\'s really thick, three miles in, and water is everywhere.

Me, I want to learn all I can about still hunting and treestand hunting because having only the calling option in ones arsenal is limiting.

So back to your original question of \"deciding weather to call him to you, or go and challenge him?\" Easily and simple for me, herd bull or satellite? Note, this has nothing to do with the size of the bull but weather he has cows. Herd bull you go to him and satellite you get him to come to you. :crazy:

Just my 2-cents!

 

[Swede]

Mr. Fitzgerald: I\'ve been missing you. It is good to see you here. Good point BTW. I\'m amazed you came up with it. :lol:

 

[WW]

OK, So you walk into a bar with your wife. And this big burley dude grabs her by the arm and tries to steal her away. So do you REACT to the situation and bust him in the mouth, or if he is bigger than you, in the family jewels. Or do you say, \" It\'s OK honey. Just give me a chance to figure things out\". I\'m betting you are going to REACT rather than think about what that guy said or did.

Same goes with elk hunting. REACTING is doing something without having to think about it. And it does take time. Every hunt is a learning experience. Look at the title of your thread. (Challenging versus flirting) Now think about that Corey Jacobsen seminar. First he locates with a location bugle. Then he closes the distance and (flirts) with some cow mews. When the bull reacts, He instantly steps on him with a (challenge). So he is using locating, flirting, and challenging all in one calling sequence.

Does this help at all?

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Swede - since you missed me so much and you like my advice, how about I print some off and bring it to you. Do you still reside at the Shady Acres Nursing Home? :upthumb:

Bill brings up a good point and it\'s a very interesting twist on the challenge.

 

[Swede]

Ya, John I\'m still there. I\'m still gummin away, and connin old timers to read these elk tales to me. I sur liked it when they red WW\'s latest one. I nevr new ther was so many wayz to say the same thing. He always amazus me. BTW WW: That wus good evun if you came up with it. We could throw in Glacier Country\'s suggestun from the elk callin 101 thread too. It fits into Simple.

 

[OldMan]

I hear you, I really do ... but the purpose of the forum is to try to impart that knowledge ... all I\'m hearing is \"you\'ll know with experience\".

In other words ... can you put what experience has taught you about \"REACTING\" into words?

Your original post was a calling situation, so I can\'t comment on that. I react to still hunting situations, because those are the only situations I put myself in.

Do you remember the thread I started on.... What would you do?... series we were having on another site?

I was hunting a known bedding area. As I was moving at a snails pace I was getting closer to an elk smell. Wind was in my face. All of a sudden a bull stood up, before I had seen it laying down. It didn\'t smell me, but probably saw my last step. It wasn\'t spooked, and stared at me. Of course I stood frozen not looking at it in the eyes. This was my first reaction. The bull slowly walked away while looking back on occasion. I stood frozen for 10 minutes. Maybe more. I waited until it was out of sight, and started to move slowly to an upper bench that paralleled the direction the bull had gone. That was the second reaction without giving it any thought.

I don\'t want to tell the whole story again, but i\'m just pointing out how I react without thinking in my style of hunting. There\'s probably thousands of reactions we make when hunting. When you\'re new to hunting you have to think about them before doing them. As the years go by, and we repeat them over and over we no longer think about them anymore. We just do them like stepping over something in our way. It takes no thought. We just do it.

 

[elkmtngear]

1. Corey likes to find vocal elk
2. Still Hunter likes to find known bedding grounds
3. BigDan likes to find herd bulls vocalizing
4. Swede likes to find water sources in spots other hunters find unlikely

Been hunting the same areas for about 16 years now, and I\'ve seen the hunting pressure increase.

Sometimes I look at highly successful hunters with their \"formulas\"...and I really want to try implementing their methods, but experience has taught me that it might result in failure in the area I hunt. Seems to me that what works in one area might not always be effective in another.

Finding vocal elk, let alone herd bulls vocalizing (almost unheard of in the area I hunt) can be a real challenge.
Still hunting has to be done in moderation, to keep from blowing the bulls out of the few secluded pockets where they take refuge.
Ambush is tough, because of the numerous water sources.

If I\'m lucky enough to get into a \"challenge vs flirting\" situation, I\'m usually going to use a combination of both, and it totally depends on the bull\'s initial reaction.

There was a time when we could just blow an external reed cow call, and have Satellite bulls run in from several different directions. Hunting pressure has changed the game.

If there\'s one constant for me, it\'s that I want to be very close before I \"flirt or challenge\". I\'m gonna be \"spitballing\" at that point, adjusting my vocalizations to the mood of the encounter...and hope it all works in my favor.

Anyway, that\'s what seems to be working for me. I\'d be interested in hearing what works for others in highly pressured areas :think:

 

[Swede]

Jeff: You are right on. I can learn from anyone with some knowledge of elk hunting, but I need to fit everything to my area and hunting style. Still Hunter made a good point too about reacting to a situation based on experience. I just wish it did not take so long to get experience. Not all learning will come from a box. We have to get out there and live it some too. I think lessons from a box are a great advantage for anyone that has the ambition and dedication necessary to educate yourself. Still, there is a part of our education that comes from just doing it. I guess a good analogy would be to think about a doctor. I know we are not doctors, but would you want a surgeon removing your gizzard, that had never seen one in real life, but got a \"A\" on his anatomy exam?

 

[elkmtngear]

Jeff: I just wish it did not take so long to get experience.

Amen Swede!

Even with those years of experience, sometimes I still walk away totally defeated in an encounter, and feeling like a total rookie

But, it\'s all part of elk hunting, and I never seem to get enough of it, or stop learning.

 

[ORelksniper]

I\'m not sure it takes a long time to get the experience, but it does take lots of elk encounters.