Lead Cow(s) or Bull

[JohnFitzgerald]

otcWill brought up a good point. Does the lead cow or bull control herd movement during the peak rut?

We talk about bulls being lovers and not fighters thus taking their cows and leaving to avoid a conflict. So, is it possible that the cows have chosen their breeders and have no interest in the intruder or the conflict.

 

[cnelk]

I think the \'control\' is split between lead cow and bull, maybe like 70% cow / 30% bull.
Just based on what I have experienced

 

[OldMan]

From what i\'ve observed i\'d say the bulls have most of the control, because they\'re broken up in smaller harems. The herd cow takes back over complete control after the rut.

 

[Deertick]

From watching them, I think the bull is always playing catch-up to the lead cow ... she and the other cows are constantly drifting toward where they want to go, and the bull is constantly trying to keep them in an area that is \"safe\" and away from other bulls.

She is always acting, he\'s always reacting.

Who wins depends on who wants it the most ... but there are more cows than bulls, so if the bull \"wins\" this afternoon, he\'ll only have to try again in an hour.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

From watching them, I think the bull is always playing catch-up to the lead cow ... she and the other cows are constantly drifting toward where they want to go, and the bull is constantly trying to keep them in an area that is \"safe\" and away from other bulls.

She is always acting, he\'s always reacting.

Who wins depends on who wants it the most ... but there are more cows than bulls, so if the bull \"wins\" this afternoon, he\'ll only have to try again in an hour.

I like it! :upthumb:

 

[OldMan]

John..........Do you think the herd cow can call away cows from a bulls harem?

 

[OldMan]

I should have gone into more detail of what I meant. I tend to give simple answers, and expect others to know what I meant. Not always the case.

So, during the rut we have more than one group. You have the mature bulls with harems. I feel the bulls have control of those cows. Then you have the rest of the cows who don\'t come into estrus. Either too young, or too old, but of no interest to the bulls. Those cows will be controlled by the herd cow.

This can look confusing at times, but if you watch them long enough you\'ll see what\'s going on.

 

[otcWill]

Great input from all here. I\'ve only witnessed the bull rounding up his cows (hooking with horns and literally driving them like cattle) a handful of times. Those have always been giants at least for the area I was hunting. The vast majority of the time I\'ve witnessed bulls simply following the herd. I hunt some fairly open stuff (at/above treeline) and I usually get to see a good amount of herd interaction each season. I can\'t remember once seeing the bull anywhere but tailing the herd while they\'re on the move. It seems that the lead cow is always in charge unless she\'s in heat at which point the other mature cows will lead the herd to bedding/feeding/safety. When observing a herd, I always notice a few old cows constantly panning over the area for danger while the bull simply runs around acting like a fool. This year, after tagging out, I hiked in and watched a herd from first light until they bedded from about 150 yards. The bull (a good one) ran around harassing every elk in the herd. He was trying to mount anything that would stand still, even calves. They whined and trotted off when being messed with and he simply moved on to the next all the while bugling his head off. The cows simply kept feeding until a few started moving slowly towards the bedding area. The bull never gave up his efforts but it seemed to have absolutely no affect on the herd. They moved when Big Momma moved. This has been my observation time and again with only a few exceptions.

Ever shoot the lead cow? Its like shooting the brain off the herd . They have absolutely no idea what to do and can be called in immediately after she goes down with the simplest of cow sounds. Merry Christmas, my friends!

 

[OldMan]

Yes, of course the bulls will be at the back of the pack when moving, but that\'s his choice not the herd cows choice. It\'s survival for the bull to let the cows go first.

As for the bull running around trying to mount every cow. Was that early rut, or even pre-rut?

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

John..........Do you think the herd cow can call away cows from a bulls harem?

Was this question directed at me or tick?

Can a lead cow call cows away from another harem? Not sure of the answer. I\'ve never seen it or even know a reason for her to try.

I\'ve watched a few herds too. In my experience the bull is constantly trying to manage the herd(keeping them tight) but ultimately the lead cow(s) determines where they go( otcWill Big Mamma leads the way). I also think if the bull is forceful enough he can determine when they move . I really like ticks \"cows act and bulls react\" comment. Maybe it\'s a constant struggle for power?

 

[OldMan]

It seems to always be the herd cows job to lead the herd when moving. I never considered that as controlling the cows during the rut. That\'s why we\'re not agreeing on this.

Question was for tic, but it doesn\'t matter now. I pretty much gave my opinion, and why I think that way.

 

[Swede]

There are some interesting observations here. I have shot the lead cow a few times when the herd comes into a water hole. I never tried to call the herd back, so I had no idea it would be that easy. My son killed a small bull one time while I was nearby. There was a cow and calf with the bull. The cow went up hill into the forest and bugled a couple of times trying to call the bull. I would say that is evidence too that the cow has some control. I also like Tick\'s explanation. I think herd management is similar to the way things work in our household. I let my wife run things as long as she does it right, or is that the other way around.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

It seems to always be the herd cows job to lead the herd when moving. I never considered that as controlling the cows during the rut. That\'s why we\'re not agreeing on this.

Question was for tic, but it doesn\'t matter now. I pretty much gave my opinion, and why I think that way.

So I\'d like to expand on Stills thoughts. Why have we heard so many times a hunter say the bull rounded up his cows and took off? Do we just assume the cow is in control because she\'s in the lead? Does leadership differ from herd to herd? In nature, the elder is usually in charge. So a bull could possibly be older than all his cows.

Group control when hiking is a leader in the front and a leader in the rear.

 

[OldMan]

John........The herd cow leads the herd all year. It\'s her job, and so she always does it. That\'s different than during the rut when the herd isn\'t moving. I guess it\'s how you want to define...in control.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So let\'s define control! I think all of us are concerned about what happens during rut. Please someone else throw out another example.

Example one: Who takes the herd away from the challenging bull? We talk about bulls being lovers and not fighters. Does the lead cow pull the bull away from the fight?

 

[otcWill]

It\'s survival for the bull to let the cows go first.\"



As for the bull running around trying to mount every cow. Was that early rut, or even pre-rut?

Rut was full bore, last week of Sept.

To the survival thing: I doubt they\'re that smart or they\'d all be jockeying for that last spot :lol: