Let\'s chat about Bull Talk

[JohnFitzgerald]

It\'s my impression and my belief that during rut, most if not all communication given by bulls, is directed at the cows. Don\'t bulls spend most of his time proving to cows that they are the dominant bull? Case, when I hear Challenge Bugles I\'m still very far off. When I get close, those tend to change to short screams w/ or w/o nervous barks. And at times they don\'t even give any sound at all.

So why would a herd bull Challenge another bull? If a Challenge Bugle is a warning, then why doesn\'t the herd bull continue to use it?

Or is a Challenge Bugle really a Dominant Bugle to prove he is the best.

Lets hear it!

 

[Swede]

I agree that most bull communications are directed toward the cows. I do not consider myself an expert in this area, but have some observations.
Bulls will move their cows away rather than deal with you if they get the chance. Even when you get in close they will take their cows and leave if possible. Usually you will get a satellite bull to come out and look for you. You have a chance at the herd bull if he believes you are an imminent threat to taking his cows.

 

[WW]

I think you have been listening to Elknut\'s BS to long. JMHO!

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

I think you have been listening to Elknut\'s BS to long. JMHO!

I don\'t think you\'d find him supporting my opinion on this. And I develop conclusions based on what I experience in the field, not what someone tells me. Never been much of a follower! :crazy:

 

[otcWill]

Tough question here. This may be a lil above my pay grade cuz honestly I have no idea what bulls are bugling about most of the time. What I do know is that if I get close enough and cut them off, they\'ll often come in pissed. As for bulls moving their cows away from a bugle, I\'ve seen the lead cow do a whole lot more leading the herd away than anything else, but I guess thats an entirely different topic. Most of the time I assume bulls are just advertising themselves to both cows and bulls. I don\'t see a Challenge as a warning, maybe just a \"heh, I\'m over here\" with the hopes that the other bulls will respect it. So, to your last question I\'d say that it is more than likely just a dominant bugle, a way of sizing up the competition vocally.

 

[cnelk]

Im with otcwill on this one.
I think bulls and cows work in conjunction to lead the others away from any perceived threat/danger.

I also believe bulls bugle in September just like roosters crow in the mornings... because they can

 

[Tdiesel]

heh, I\'m over here\" with the hopes that the other bulls will respect it.

I think thats what most bugles are in early morning or as they are going to bed. Along with lead cows leading the herd away I don\'t think herds(bulls or the cows) like to intermix if they can help it. they sound off hoping to keep tabs on everybody else as well as advertising themselves as they travel up the mountain. I\'m not really sure about the bugles only talking to cows; while I agree I think alot of times it is this way more than talking to another bull, but if a satellite comes in trying to steal cows the tone and demeanor changes and I believe the bull is talking to the other bull at this time :dk: hard to say since I can\'t translate exactly but it takes on a whole new \"emotion\" since we discuss that alot I\'ll use it . I will say probably 90% (probably higher) is directed towards cows or at least trying to get cows, but I feel there is still some talk directed at other bulls. JMO

 

[elkmtngear]

So why would a herd bull Challenge another bull? If a Challenge Bugle is a warning, then why doesn\'t the herd bull continue to use it?

John, I\'ve sat at a distance and watched two herd bulls move slowly toward eachother, leaving their respective cows behind them, repeatedly screaming aggressively as they approached eachother.

Not sure what that means, but I\'m pretty sure their screams were somewhat directed at eachother.

I believe it is an expression of dominance, and is sometimes just reactionary (like getting a turkey to shock-gobble). It\'s part of their DNA...a product of excess testosterone.

Who or what it is specifically directed at is over-thinking it IMHO.

As otcwill stated...my interpretation of a bugle is \"I\'m right here\" in most cases. It will have the secondary effect of getting subordinate bulls to respect it (most of the time), and cows to gather round him. So theres my 2 cents

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Thanks guys!

Is it important to understand if the bull is talking to cows or other bulls? Is it ok to dismiss grey areas just because? We all educate ourselves on elk habits to give us an advantage over them, so why don\'t we do the same with the elk language?

 

[elkmtngear]

We all educate ourselves on elk habits to give us an advantage over them, so why don\'t we do the same with the elk language?

There are folks that make a very good living doing just that...dissecting and categorizing every nuance of elk vocalizations. :crazy:

Personally I am a fan of keeping it simple...if the bull is vocal and I want to kill him...I\'m going to try to get as close as possible, and try to get a reaction out of him. Doesn\'t really matter specifically what he is \"saying\", although if he continues to respond to a challenge, I will often try to mimic his tone and intensity.

 

[Swede]

Elkmtngear \"There are folks that make a very good living doing just that...dissecting and categorizing every nuance of elk vocalizations. Personally I am a fan of keeping it simple...if the bull is vocal and I want to kill him...I\'m going to try to get as close as possible, and try to get a reaction out of him. Doesn\'t really matter specifically what he is \"saying\", although if he continues to respond to a challenge, I will often try to mimic his tone and intensity.\"

There you have it folks. Elk calling in a nutshell.

If you watch or read some strategy, which you need to study and manage of the fly; remember elk in different areas react differently to calls. I have read and studied Elknut\'s information. He has a lot of good stuff. Don\'t confuse it with the Bible. You need to know your area and the elk that live there. Simple calling plans are more likely to work universally than complex ones, but even one simple bugle will not likely work through the whole season. If the elk respond to a cow call; use a cow call. If they respond to a bugle; use that.

 

[flystrait]

Simple calling plans are more likely to work universally than complex ones, but even one simple bugle will not likely work through the whole season. If the elk respond to a cow call; use a cow call. If they respond to a bugle; use that.[/quote]

I agree with this last statement as well. Elk talk to each other cows and or bulls to the same sex and opposite sex. I don\'t really care either way, I want them to respond to me which usually lets us to put them in a position for a shot. There are several ways of doing this for different people but the end goal is to have that opportunity either way, some use calls to call them in and some want to keep them vocal so a shooter can stalk in just a couple examples. As far as challenge bugle meaning something yes I do believe they are usually directed to another bull. I don\'t really care to understand or try tot understand what each sound means, I care way more about the emotion and intensity in which they say it. It has not mattered where we have hunted Oregon, Wa, both sides of the mountains, ID, MT etc we use the same basic sounds and find vocal elk in every area. I never listen to other hunters that have hunted an area for years that say they are call shy, or they only respond to cow calls etc. That\'s why most are not part of that 10% club and never will be. Be versatile in all the techniques and have the confidence in what your doing that helps a lot as well.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Jeff - I think we are on the same page. :wave: Although I believe in simple, I also believe one can be too simple.

Complicated == this sound is for bulls, this sound is for cows, this sound is for both, this sound is for bulls when cows are around, and this could possibly be for both but only the elk know.

As callers, wouldn\'t a basic or simple understanding of what the bulls trying to say help determine how we hunt him? Knowing in advance might prevent one from bumping a satellite bull that was coming into to you as you were working into him. Or might just let you know that the bull your working is a herd bull and might flee instead of fight.

So complicated for me is a bull has one particular bugle to attract cows but when you add a little raspy and harder sounds it turns into a Challenge Bugle.

Elk language can\'t be that complicated and it can\'t be too simple. There must be a middle ground......or the in other words the TRUTH. And sometimes it takes swinging way to the opposite side is in order to break bad teaching. How many hunters are out there that think bugles are only directed at other bulls.

Maybe the Challenge Bugle is directed at both bulls and cows and is not really a challenge at all. Maybe it serves a dual purpose. Shows the cows and other bulls they are the dominate bull. Maybe it\'s a Dominant Bugle?

Does it make sense for a herd bull to throw out challenges only to slip out without
a fight? Let me know if you\'ve seen or heard this example, \"Oh that bull just gave me a Challenge Bugle. Let\'s move in very quick a challenge him back.\" Then 30 minutes later, \"Dang, where did he go?\"

 

[Guest]

It may surprise many people but I use simple cow mews and calf sounds a lot. I also use a chuckle sequence way more than any other call !! Racking a tree and dragging my feet on the ground and rattling rocks as this is all elk communication ! This brings in 30-40 elk a season for me and in close like 5-10 yards.. to close for many people.

Don\'t get stuck on location bugles and big herd bull sounds guys.. think outside the box and do things other guys are not doing and you\'ll see in the frequency of your call ins !!

My chuckle sequence is intended for the bull only. chuckling and racking a tree have called in more elk than I can even count.

 

[otcWill]

Does it make sense for a herd bull to throw out challenges only to slip out without
a fight? Let me know if you\'ve seen or heard this example, \"Oh that bull just gave me a Challenge Bugle. Let\'s move in very quick a challenge him back.\" Then 30 minutes later, \"Dang, where did he go?\"

Sure it does. Like when a guy comes online and calls himself an elk expert but never posts up a dead bull :think: . I think that maybe even most bulls will talk trash without the intention of backing it up. I\'ve seen this a few times with bulls and people I think often times people can misinterpret things that they only hear and never see. For example, a lot of times I\'ve assumed that my bugling is pushing the bull away but in reality the cows have gotten upset and taken the sex-crazed, nearly braindead bulls with them. Just an assumption hear, but based on seeing the cows lead the herd about 99% of the time.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Sex crazed and brain dead explains my 18th year of life. :haha:

 

[cnelk]

Sex crazed and brain dead explains my 18th year of life. :haha:

Wait til youre 50.... then its sex dead and brain crazed

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Sex crazed and brain dead explains my 18th year of life. :haha:

Wait til youre 50.... then its sex dead and brain crazed

If that\'s what it is at 50.......then what would it be for Swede? Dead and crazed! :shock: :haha:

 

[Glacier Country]

Simple calling plans are more likely to work universally than complex ones, but even one simple bugle will not likely work through the whole season. If the elk respond to a cow call; use a cow call. If they respond to a bugle; use that.

I agree with this last statement as well. Elk talk to each other cows and or bulls to the same sex and opposite sex. I don\'t really care either way, I want them to respond to me which usually lets us to put them in a position for a shot. There are several ways of doing this for different people but the end goal is to have that opportunity either way, some use calls to call them in and some want to keep them vocal so a shooter can stalk in just a couple examples. As far as challenge bugle meaning something yes I do believe they are usually directed to another bull. I don\'t really care to understand or try tot understand what each sound means, I care way more about the emotion and intensity in which they say it. It has not mattered where we have hunted Oregon, Wa, both sides of the mountains, ID, MT etc we use the same basic sounds and find vocal elk in every area. I never listen to other hunters that have hunted an area for years that say they are call shy, or they only respond to cow calls etc. That\'s why most are not part of that 10% club and never will be. Be versatile in all the techniques and have the confidence in what your doing that helps a lot as well.[/quote]

I like to keep things pretty simple myself .... I think the statements I quoted above kinda sums up what I do. I do not always try to analyze every elk vocalization in a herd complex. I just simply Locate .... get close and make sounds to make the elk REACT and come to me. So if Racking a tree and Bugling gets the bull to REACT then that is what I do. If a certain herd bull reacts to cow calls that is what I do.
I am not saying it is a perfect system, but it is simple and works Where ever I have tried it with a a high degree of success.
I might also mention that Most of the time I do not know that much about the areas I\'m hunting. Hunting Elk here anymore, is more like finding a needle in a haystack,than going to a certain area and patterning the elk herd. Most areas here see a fair amount of hunting pressure from other hunters as well, so I spend a lot of time trying to figure out how to get in and on elk quickly enough to get one down before the chance is blown by another hunter.
A few quick stats about NW Montana Region 1. The rifle season checK station stats showed 16000 hunters stopped at check stations this fall during the rifle season and 48 elk were checked in at the check stations through out NW Montana. Only 48 elk taken. Do the math you are lucky to see hear,or jump an elk let alone get one on the ground! So I have developed a system that works for us... I have guys tell me that bugling doesn\'t work well on bulls here. Heck my wife\'s boss said that to me in September. He lost his calls and needed some more, so he called me to have me suggest some. I suggested a Sweet Temptation wow call ,A Cow call with Wow factor!! A High Heel Hottie bite call and a New prototype Deadly Weapon diaphragm that can do great cow calls and very good bull bugles. A few days later he sent us a text with a picture of a 370 bull his son shot that he Bugled in for him. Hmm, maybe the right call at the right time is what works. Just be ADAPTABLE... If you are not a good Bugler then locate and stick with cow calls. If you can Bugle well then use that , if you can do both cow and bull sounds and they sound pretty good you are a lot closer to putting yourself into that successful 10% group IMO.