No bugles....WTH!

[JohnFitzgerald]

I have a spot in Oregon that contains really big toads. Some of the largest bulls I\'ve ever hunted have been in this area. It\'s extremely tough hunting and the elk are sparse. But we have several advantage points that allow us to bugle vast amounts of country. Even at the end of the season, vocal bulls are extremely rare. Yet, we find fresh tracks and sign. Hunting pressure varies.

How would you hunt this type of area? Distance between elk, if your lucky to find\'em, is far. Do you concede and say big bulls or not, this area is unhuntable?

 

[Scot320]

I use to do a lot of tournament bass fishing, and developing and patterning the bass on a given lake for a specific time of year was the key to cashing a check. I think that\'s what you would have to do in this case...lots of boot time patterning the elk in this area may lead to a good ambush spot.

 

[iccyman001]

John, I would ask what your objective is.
Are you trying to shoot any bull or a trophy.

If you say trophy, then I am siding with Scott.

You said it yourself. \"It contains toads.\"
I would be all about patterning them in everyday shape and form.

 

[AndyJ]

This is a great question and one I struggle with all the time. I have to admit, a lot of times I feel like a one trick pony and my trick involves hearing bugles. However, I would say this is one of those times when knowing your area really well and knowing how most other hunters hunt it is crucial in order to be successful. Big bulls get big because they know how to hide. I think a big old bull can be a lot like an old white tail. They learn a specific area well and they know how to spot when things are not right. Despite what a lot of guys think, just like a mature buck, elk will also go completely nocturnal.

This is a little bit of a tangent but it ties right back into what I just said. A study was done a few years ago. A bunch of bulls where collared before the hunting season started. Once the season started the biologists lumped the bulls into two categories, runners and hiders. Runners got bumped and blew out of the area. Hiders stayed in the same general area but found good hiding spots. At the end of all the hunting seasons almost if not all of the runners where killed (I don\'t remember the exact results but I am close). However, most of the hiders survived.

How does this relate to the thread? Big bulls are probably hiders. These last few years I have managed to find some pretty good bulls that where totally silent by locating brutal to hunt areas that are where other hunters just don\'t go. Some of these areas are hard to get to, but a lot of them just aren\'t obvious. So my technique is to locate these spots and move SLOW. Locate travel corridors, and bottlenecks. The exact tactics will depend on the specific topography and what you find in the area. Whatever you do realize that you will probably get only one chance so don\'t do anything rash and stay patient and pay attention to every sound, odd clump of color whatever. Everything is an elk until proven otherwise. Definitely hunt the area. You won\'t kill one of those monsters if you\'re not hunting where they live.

John, please explain why the area is extremely tough hunting.

 

[Swede]

It is my understanding (hearsay) that the elk in your area travel in a circuit. Their rotation takes about ten days. As mentioned earlier, patterning them could be critical to success. If you could set up a few trail cameras by the end of June, and check them every couple weeks, you just might figure them out. I like a tree stand, but for someone not accustomed to sitting for days and weeks, it can be brutal, and you will probably think something is wrong, and quit before you ever succeed.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

This is a great question and one I struggle with all the time. I have to admit, a lot of times I feel like a one trick pony and my trick involves hearing bugles. However, I would say this is one of those times when knowing your area really well and knowing how most other hunters hunt it is crucial in order to be successful. Big bulls get big because they know how to hide. I think a big old bull can be a lot like an old white tail. They learn a specific area well and they know how to spot when things are not right. Despite what a lot of guys think, just like a mature buck, elk will also go completely nocturnal.

This is a little bit of a tangent but it ties right back into what I just said. A study was done a few years ago. A bunch of bulls where collared before the hunting season started. Once the season started the biologists lumped the bulls into two categories, runners and hiders. Runners got bumped and blew out of the area. Hiders stayed in the same general area but found good hiding spots. At the end of all the hunting seasons almost if not all of the runners where killed (I don\'t remember the exact results but I am close). However, most of the hiders survived.

How does this relate to the thread? Big bulls are probably hiders. These last few years I have managed to find some pretty good bulls that where totally silent by locating brutal to hunt areas that are where other hunters just don\'t go. Some of these areas are hard to get to, but a lot of them just aren\'t obvious. So my technique is to locate these spots and move SLOW. Locate travel corridors, and bottlenecks. The exact tactics will depend on the specific topography and what you find in the area. Whatever you do realize that you will probably get only one chance so don\'t do anything rash and stay patient and pay attention to every sound, odd clump of color whatever. Everything is an elk until proven otherwise. Definitely hunt the area. You won\'t kill one of those monsters if you\'re not hunting where they live.

John, please explain why the area is extremely tough hunting.

Steep, very open, with pockets of timber in the draws. If you want to put on miles, it will cost you. :train:

Two bulls taken in the last 6 years out of this spot, a 305 and 340. And we\'ve seen bulls a lot bigger. When I say toads, I mean TOADS! But you can spend weeks not seeing an elk only to catch site of one at 200 yards as he hopes over the next ridge.

 

[Deertick]

I\'m not so sure I buy the \"circuit\" theory. Possible, I guess, but I think the available evidence requires a lot of speculation.

(I\'m supposing we\'re not talking about GPS-tracked elk here ... if so, I retract what I said.) Often when people refer to circuits they are referring to how often they get photos of a particular elk on a trail camera. I think extrapolating from trail camera photos to a circuit requires a lot of speculation since trail cameras are not perfect by any means ... step on the other side of the camera and you\'re suddenly \"not there.\"

I think wandering (perhaps in a circuit, perhaps just randomly between 5-10 feeding/bedding areas) elk are more likely in small bands or herds. Those big bulls ... why would they wander? The lead cow wants to wander because she\'s responsible for finding feed for herself and a bunch of other elk and elk babies. She HAS to wander to keep finding new grass.

That big bull ... he has a lot less to push him away from his honey hole. A good area of 5 acres can support him all summer with decent rain.

The \"hiders\", I speculate, are not just hiders during rifle season. I\'m guessing that they are like that almost all the time -- except the rut, when their brains migrate rearwards about 4 feet.
-------
Now, here\'s another theory I\'ve heard about \"hiders\".

It starts with sheep. No, not wild sheep. Domestic sheep. There exist rams that are either asexual or same-sex-attracted rams. Why they exist at all is not known. Obviously it is for some reason other than procreation of the herd, but they exist. Some have speculated that the same thing exists with deer and elk. Big bucks and bulls are simply not \"turned-on\" sexually by the rut. While the horny ones go running all over and get killed, the asexual or same-sex-attracted bucks and bulls stay home and wonder what all the fuss is about, and \"accidentally\" avoid becoming hunting casualties.

If that\'s the case, I would think they would be very difficult to hunt with traditional \"mating-simulation\"-style of hunting. They may be curious and respond only to herd talk, etc.
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So, how to hunt your area? Cover ground until you find elk or fresh sign. Hopefully you can do that from behind some glass with your butt on the ground, but you may have to do it with boots!

 

[otcWill]

I know a spot exactly like that. I have seen some monsters including this guy who would likely break the archery state record. This pic was taken on opening day of elk season while I was deer hunting. The unit is a 1pt draw so I didn\'t have an elk tag that year. I spent about 50 days over that season and the next scouting and attempting to pattern the bulls in this area. I concluded that they almost never wander onto public and that my chances were very slim of killing him or one of his 350 compadres. I\'d rather get into elk everyday and kill any mature bull than chase the dream of a record with slim chances. I think tall odds in pursiut of trophies is less fun than seeing elk everyday regardless of the caliber. Would you have risked spending a whole season chasing this guy with a good chance of not only failing to kill him, but possibly never even seeing an elk?

 

[cohunter14]

I know it has been said, but patterning the elk would probably be the best way to go about it. I would spend a day or two just glassing the areas. See if you can find out where they bed. If you can, get down there before first light and wait. Seeing how tough this terrain is to walk, I would use my eyes to cover a lot of ground. I think Pete should weigh in on this as well, I\'m sure he could give you some help. It sounds similar to how he hunts the elk in his area.

 

[Tdiesel]

John to answer your question I would not hunt them as typical elk. I know I\'ll probably get hung for this but my actual true passion is hunting big old mule deer bucks. I would hunt these bulls the same way I hunt big mule deer spot and stalk! Above timberline deer live in open steep country and can hide amazingly well. if you skyline yourself they usually make an exit well ahead of you or will even hold tight if they think you\'ll just walk on by. watched a big buck play ring around the rosie with my brother one day as he crept in I was giving him handsignals which direction the deer went mind you this is right at timberline with just krumholtz that buck I bet was never more than 100 yards from my brother and circled him probably twice finally my brother gave up and came back pissed thinking I was just messing with him he never so much as got a glimpse. this plays into your hiders theory. I would be glassing and trying to figure where these bulls are bedding up. Not sure if this will work but thats the tactics I would use. My dad always said though deer find a home and learn all the escapes would rather play hide and seek and elk are more nomadic (travel around and bed where they feel like it. As your thinking they stay in the area your almost describing more like deer behavior so thats the way I would hunt them. as clear as mud and crazy enough it just might work. :crazy:

 

[OldMan]

That\'s the kind of areas I love. Hard to find bulls weeds out most of the hunters. Sometimes all of them. There\'s no getting around lots of boot time. No way to still hunt them unless you know about where they are.

So, get your boots resoled, and get to work. Isn\'t elk hunting fun?

 

[Swede]

The knowledge that many elk herds travel around in a circuit is not based on trail camera pictures or how often they stop at a certain water hole. It has been observed by following the whereabouts of individual herds. My guess is that the elk in John\'s area have about a 10-15 square mile home range. That makes it difficult to go out on any given day and call them in. Apparently there are not many elk, including herds, in that area, so he his not getting others to work on him either. It is the toad or nothing.
The problem with my first response to John was not is the circuit idea, but that, to my knowledge, lone bulls have not been observed to travel in that kind of pattern unless they are following a herd. Still, I think they have a fairly predictable routine, that lasts until the time they start to herd up. John may be discovering that his toads have just left him for a bunch of cows soon to be coming into estrus. In some areas I believe that accounts more for why elk leave than hunting pressure.

 

[Swede]

I tried to spend some time researching elk travel patterns, but did not find anything to support my contention that herds often travel around in a large circular pattern. In the area where I live there is an elk herd that can be seen in different locations that vary by several miles. They seen to come back to the same fields on a regular basis. Where I grew up near Glide, the elk seemed to range in a similar pattern. Here today and gone for a couple of weeks, then all of a sudden the elk are back. Weather is not a factor, as it doesn\'t change significantly from place to place throughout a herd\'s range. Near where JF hunts, a friend hunted for years. He commented that the place was void of elk for days, and there was very little if any fresh sign, then all of a sudden elk were everywhere. The next day almost all were gone, except for maybe one or two. By the following day they too were gone again. He said if you were there when the elk were, the hunting was great. If you missed it, you were just out camping and hiking.

 

[cnelk]

JF,
Are there cow elk in with bulls in this spot?

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

JF,
Are there cow elk in with bulls in this spot?

Yes. I\'ve seen 2 - 60 cow harems. At times, lone bulls. Also seen some wild horses.

 

[Swede]

John isn\'t your hunting mostly Lodgepole pine (80%) with scattered meadows and other openings? If so, I suspect your elk, especially the herds, are covering a lot of ground. Where I hunt there is sufficient forage for the elk until hundreds of cattle are turned loose on the landscape. Shortly after that the elk head for the hay fields of the nearest ranch.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

John isn\'t your hunting mostly Lodgepole pine (80%) with scattered meadows and other openings? If so, I suspect your elk, especially the herds, are covering a lot of ground. Where I hunt there is sufficient forage for the elk until hundreds of cattle are turned loose on the landscape. Shortly after that the elk head for the hay fields of the nearest ranch.

This spot is around where you hunted last year. I told you about it last weekend. This might ring a bell 340......fire.....big bulls....1 out of 100 times. :shh:

Hay fields might have something to do with it, but the fields butt up against steep NF land.

 

[Swede]

I remember where you are writing about. The situation is totally different than I was thinking. I thought you were writing about an area where the elk have no real sanctuary, and miles of forest with limited forage areas. I do not have a solid answer. I have been trying to figure out a similar situation where I hunt. We have more bulls but very, very few really big ones. Also when the elk leave my area they are gone and soon there is very little or no fresh sign.
I don\'t remember you saying anything about the cattle grazing in this area. Do cattle come in by the hundreds just before the bow season? It is interesting that you see fresh sign even late in the season. Isn\'t the hunting pressure there pretty high? Where I hunt, elk historically would go to the nearby ranch then return when the large herds broke up Then they would roam back through the National Forest. Now they are not coming back.
I still think monitoring water holes could pay. When those toads cow up, they won\'t be alone. Look over the potential bedding areas and see if there are a lot of rubs, new and old. See if you cam find small isolated springs nearby within good cover. Look for a good tree to place a stand in.

 

[iccyman001]

John,

PM me the coordinates and I will go hunt it this year and give you a game plan based off my success or failures.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

No problem. Go to Ukiah Oregon and head south until you come to the dirt road. Take a right and stop at the rock. Then walk South until you reach the pine tree. From there head west until you reach the grass.....x marks the spot!