Roe Hunting Resources -

[JohnFitzgerald]

Just watched this video and it has cleared up a lot of questions for me. Very interesting idea about how some bulls are just lovers and not fighters.

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If you are a caller, this video is a must view.

What are some points of interests that you all discovered?

jf

 

[BTL]

Maybe a backwards type of thinking, but, if you are in an area where younger bulls have the right to breed......wouldn\'t it still work in your favor to bugle and be the so called dominant bull? Matching tone and intensity of the bull you are calling to would seem to work better in this situation. They have been with other bulls all summer and know their competition for the most part. So why not challenge them in their bedroom? Time of season for me using this would be the first week to week and a half in September. When and if this happens, adjust to locating and moving in for an ambush.

I would also think on the note of a bull being a lover and not a fighter: A bull willing to challenge him will steel his cows. He wont be passing on his genes. I think its different when cows flee the scene from being harassed. IMO this would have to take place for awhile....later part of the breeding phase. Younger bulls typically start with the harem of cows early and pre stages only to be kicked out by \"the dominant bull\" when the time comes. Only after getting challenged and harassed for a while would I see this taking place.

 

[Zpd307]

I have seen the same thing with tom turkeys. and some them have big subordinate toms.....

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

A lot of guys talk about \"just challenge\" the bull and he\'ll defend. For me it\'s more than that. Chris talks about bulls slipping out the back....which Ive seen happen a lot. I\'ve also heard countless stories of bulls going silent as the hunter moves in.

But let me pose this questions, if you sound like an equal bull and you surprise him with how close you are, do you think that takes away from the flight and turns more towards fight. Making the bull feel he has no other choice.

Our good buddy WW talked about the Corey Jacobsen method. Locate bugle, get in close and cow call, then interupt the bull with your own domainating bugle. So do you think this is a better \"Challenge\" method? If you bugle your way in, the bulls sure does have the option to slip out the back door.

jf

 

[elkmtngear]

But let me pose this questions, if you sound like an equal bull and you surprise him with how close you are, do you think that takes away from the flight and turns more towards fight. Making the bull feel he has no other choice.

In my opinion, this can work well, in the RIGHT situation. For example, a smaller bull later in the Season with a single cow will defend that cow...but only if you are close enough to be considered an actual threat.

Even a big bull will run his herd over the next ridge many times, rather than stand and fight a potential intruder. UNLESS you are inside his comfort zone!

There\'s a lot to be said about getting close when when it comes to a challenge situation, IMHO!

 

[cnelk]

I gotta admit that there have been more times the bull went silent or sneaked away when bugling than I care to remember.
The bulls in my areas must be lovers...

 

[BTL]

Even a big bull will run his herd over the next ridge many times, rather than stand and fight a potential intruder. UNLESS you are inside his comfort zone!


^^^^^I failed to use this as part of my description. I think this is critical in any calling situation. well said

 

[elkmtngear]

I gotta admit that there have been more times the bull went silent or sneaked away when bugling than I care to remember.
The bulls in my areas must be lovers...

Chris described the bulls in the area I hunt to a tee. There are a lot of \"subdominant\" bulls running around that have one or two cows by the last two weeks of the Season. That\'s the reason why I never try to sound like \"Billy Badass\" if and when I bugle.

Even Cory Jacobsen just uses a simple, single note bugle in many of his encounters. It\'s not like he can\'t sound like the baddest bull on the planet, he\'s proven that many times over at calling championships. :think:

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Those are the same bulls in my area as well Jeff.

I usually like to sound as equal to or a little less than the herd bull. Just depends on if he is a \"true\" herd bull and not just a fill in or a satellite that gained a few cows.

So to combat the flight, I like to get in really close before I challenge. Anybody have other idea\'s on how to get the bull to stand and fight? Possibly something that you think might work but haven\'t tried.

jf

 

[elkmtngear]

So to combat the flight, I like to get in really close before I challenge. Anybody have other idea\'s on how to get the bull to stand and fight? Possibly something that you think might work but haven\'t tried. jf

On a bull that stays vocal, but is \"hanging up\"...I\'ve always wanted to run straight at him with my decoy shielding, into bow range...giving an excited cow call.

I know some of you guys have played \"cat and mouse\" with a bull like that before. It\'s a gamble, but it might pay off :think:

 

[Swede]

I have stayed in mostly the same area for over 20 years now. Chris could have been hunting exactly where I have. His observations parallels what those who hunt our area have been seeing. The challenge bugle, unless the bull is very close, and feels he must deal with you, is generally going to put him to flight. The bull and his cows will leave if given an opportunity.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

WW - You have a lot of experience with this. What have you noticed over the years? How do you stop them from flight?

 

[Swede]

Back in the 1990s the elk were more vocal and often came to calls when I was reasonably close to them. I tried different calls then, but did not understand elk vocalizations very well. Sometimes they came in, sometimes not. Unfortunately I, and too many other hunters ended up educating the elk. Too often they thought they heard a cow or bull elk, but when they got close they were confronted by a bow hunter. Now they don\'t come like they used to. Now days you must sound more convincing.
Mostly I have gone to tree stands partly because of call shy elk. With my poor eyesight, it has worked well. When I an on the ground, I try cow and small short two note calls that I hope will attract them. Often I stop in an area and rake and make one of those short one or two note bugles. I will stomp around a little then move off a ways and wait.
I hope to look around a little this year and try the Corey Jacobson method, but am willing to give Chris Roe\'s suggestion more effort. I think his style is already pretty much what I do. Sometimes I just sit in the afternoon, and try to sound like a lonely small bull, just squealing out small bull calls. I have not gotten an elk this way, but I have called a couple in. I have to admit I forgot to pay attention.

 

[Tdiesel]

I\'m not really sure if there is a way to combat their flight approach chris roe hunts CO oTC units every year and under stand what the majority of people are facing I think most of us who hunt OTC units will relate a lot whith what chris stated. That being said Bedding grounds (their home) have been the most successful for me and my buds on getting elk to fight rather than flee. I suppose its alot like your house rather than the grocery store. say your at the grocery store and a big 6\'6\" 300 pound guy is ten steps from me starts threatening me I would probably still take the flight approach even though he is in my comfort zone. now if its a punk 14 year old kid I would probably deal with it. Now if Im in my house and at 2:00 in the morning a 6\"6\" 300 pound guy crashes in my front door and is threatening me even though I may feel out sized I\'m still gonna try to defend myself and family even if it means I end up in the hospital. So closeness and I might add surprised closeness in a comfort area seems to trigger it in my experience. If that big burly guy calls me tells me he is comming and then pulls up to the end of the street and starts yelling even at home I would still likely avoid the fight by fleeing out the back door. this of course is just a senario and my thinking without my concealed weapon of course! Anyhow thats some of my experience if others experience something different I would like to hear cause I sure am not a master at it. and would love to have something new to try this fall.

 

[WW]

WW - You have a lot of experience with this. What have you noticed over the years? How do you stop them from flight?

Just about every situation is different. So what works for one may not be effective the next time. But let me tell you about the last (runner) I encountered that was a herd bull with cows.

I did a location bugle and got a response from him about 1/4 mile away. He wasn\'t very talkative so as I closed the distance between us I had to make him respond again with a simple non aggressive location bugle from maybe 1/8th of a mile out. When I got within what I figured was just about 100 yards of so, I chuckled lightly like a bull will often do when he is trying to call cows to him.

This bull was a runner. He bugled back at me, packed up his cows and retreated. So rather than follow him, I stood my ground and gave a hi-pitched bugle followed by about three cow mews and then I started to rake the heck out of a small tree trying to make the impression that I had stolen or enticed some of his cows to come to me and I was displaying for them. He immediately turned and came back on a string.

Another time I was dogging a herd that was on the move. I was lagging behind them using lost cow sounds and trying my best to keep up. I never did stop the herd but as I came to an opening I noticed a 5x6 bull that was also dogging the herd, break into the opening about 150-200 yards away. I switched from a lost cow to my best impression of a soft, sexy \"Come over here big boy\"! The results was a frontal shot at eight yards and a 20 yard recovery.

I guess there is more than one way to skin a cat! LOL! And different situations call for different tactics.

I rarely don\'t pay too much attention to guys like Chris Roe or Paul Medel. They are just trying to sound like they know it all and that is basically how the make their living. I suppose you can\'t blame them for that. It seems to pay the bills for them. Instead, listen to guys like Big Danny Moore or Troy Bungay who are proven hunters and callers.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Thanks Bill! Great additions.

Tdiesel - You bring up a good point. A lot of guys frown on hunting elk in their beds. I for one hunt them wherever they are found. Anybody want to defend the no hunting them in their bed? Feel free to speak up, this is an open forum and everybody has a right to their opinion and everyone is free from ridicule.

jf

 

[cnelk]

That stand I moved last weekend?
Right on the edge of a bedding area.
I have researched the spot and know the wind and access points

 

[Tdiesel]

Tdiesel - You bring up a good point. A lot of guys frown on hunting elk in their beds. I for one hunt them wherever they are found. Anybody want to defend the no hunting them in their bed? Feel free to speak up, this is an open forum and everybody has a right to their opinion and everyone is free from ridicule.

jf

I agree I hunt them where they are! I\'m sure I\'ve killed more bulls by ambush on a trail than any other way, but since were talking about calling and bulls running from calling, my experience has been it seems more bulls will stand their ground in bedding areas if snuck up on and in close than they will say staging in an aspen thicket half way up the mountain as they are heading down for evening feeding, all else being equal as far as closness and challenging. I also don\'t have the luxury of hunting a week straight its usually one or two days in a week. Thats why I am willing to be agressive. if hunting a particular herd for a week I might not hunt the bedding areas till the last couple days so I don\'t blow them out on day 1 and have no elk to hunt for the rest of the week. Depends on the situation I suppose

 

[WW]

I\'m one that avoids bedding areas if at all possible. Elk need a resting and security area. My thought is, If you leave them alone in these areas, you can go right back in the very next day and work the same bull before he goes to bed so long as he never got a good whiff of you before. Also, I have nothing against hunting the edge of bedding areas and trying to call them out of it or waiting for them to come out on their own.

If you blow them out by hunting the bedding area, there is a chance you will have to spend the rest of your hunt trying to relocate them or another bunch of elk.The exception is the last day or two of your hunt. Then it really doesn\'t matter if you bust them out of the area.

 

[Glacier Country]

I tend to agree with WW on this one. I might hunt the edges of a known bedding area, to try to pull some elk out, But I try to leave them, in their safe zone, so I don\'t run them out of the country. I typically like to cut them off between feeding and bedding areas. This way I can work them on several different occasions. For instance , I almost killed the bull my wife shot this year several different times,on several different occasions, but there were certain areas that I purposely left them alone.