Sounding to BIG!
- Thread starter flystrait
- Start date
You can definitely sound too big. Elk are tough but when a satellite gets his butt kicked by a big mean herd bull contender, I bet it hurts and they remember it. If you are hunting satellites that are maybe a year or two too young to be fighting for herd bull status you can easily scare these guys away by sounding too big. They may have been beaten up before and are not looking for a repeat.
It is also important to keep in mind that many times the herd bull doesn\'t want a bad fight or any fight for that matter. If a herd bull has cows, many times sounding like a big mean bull is all it takes for him to gather his harem and get out fast. Why risk losing your cows in a fight when you can keep your cows and just run?
I find the best time of year to sound like a big bull is the first week of the season. The bulls are alone and really just sizing each other up before the rut begins. I think sounding like a big bull in the first week is effective at calling in big bulls, because you sound like competition and they want to actually see what this new bull looks like.
It is also important to keep in mind that many times the herd bull doesn\'t want a bad fight or any fight for that matter. If a herd bull has cows, many times sounding like a big mean bull is all it takes for him to gather his harem and get out fast. Why risk losing your cows in a fight when you can keep your cows and just run?
I find the best time of year to sound like a big bull is the first week of the season. The bulls are alone and really just sizing each other up before the rut begins. I think sounding like a big bull in the first week is effective at calling in big bulls, because you sound like competition and they want to actually see what this new bull looks like.
JohnFitzgerald
New member
- Mar 31, 2014
- 1,108
What sounds define the bull as big? I can defiantly tell the difference between a young bull and a mature bull. But size...???? Aggression is more important to be aware of. Aggression and lack of are both tactics but if used in the wrong situation, both can lead to tag soup.
I\'m extremely bad about saying small verses large bulls. What I really mean is mature verses young.
I\'m extremely bad about saying small verses large bulls. What I really mean is mature verses young.
JohnFitzgerald
New member
- Mar 31, 2014
- 1,108
\"AndyJ\" said:
Can you explain? I know what who meant?
If your talking about flystraight, yes I do know what he\'s talking about. He\'s asking if a bull can be too big, figuratively. And by \"size\" I\'m referring to the dominant rack. Bulls try to intimidate by paralleling each other while turning their head and showing their antlers. Until they set eyes on each other, no mature bull can sound bigger than the other, IMHO. They can be more aggressive in their bugles but can not sound bigger....figuratively!
And by \"I\'m extremely bad about saying small verses large bulls. What I really mean is mature verses young\"....I\'m referring to my bad habit of calling bulls with short antlers \"small\" instead of young bulls. And calling bulls with larger antlers \"big\" instead of mature.
Sometimes when one spends many hours after work supporting the forum by making sure things \"run\", ones posts might be a little shorter than everyone elses. I\'m sorry if they are confusing.
Wow I\'m really surprised we don\'t have more responses yet. I seen many times where guys talk about spike squeals, and sound like a satellite bull. These people are all trying to display being lessor of the bull they are calling. Do you think it\'s just us humans that think this way so then the elk must think this as well? I believe elk react they don\'t stand there and ponder what their next move is in advance. As for sounding to big, I will hold my opinion just a while longer.
JohnFitzgerald
New member
- Mar 31, 2014
- 1,108
Many do not agree with my opinion but here goes anyways.
For bulls it\'s about opportunity and dominance. Every bull has the instinct to breed and most of their vocalizations during rut is directed at keeping or attracting cows by announcement and dominant expression. Mature bulls can intimidate juvenile bulls with vocal expression, but not other mature bulls. However, one mature bull can be more aggressive than another.
Bulls know who the other bulls are in the area. They bachelor up with these bulls during the summer months and know exactly what the pecking order is. That?s why fights are very rare but when they do occur it?s usually because of a wondering bull or you have two bulls considered equal. When a hunter gets close to a herd bull, there?s a new sound on the block and the herd bull does not know where he ranks. Aggressive calling by the hunter can lead the bull to believe that this intruder is hell bent on stealing his herd. Some will slip out without a fight and others will come to meet the aggression.
Sounding like a young bull in a setup can be a good tactic because it creates an opportunity for mature bulls. So, can you sound too big? Yes, on rare occasion a very young bull will gain cows early in the season and keep them into rut. He?ll act as the herd bull as long as a mature bull doesn?t come along. Most mature herd bulls are not intimidated by ?other? mature bulls including you the hunter. Getting in close, and bugling at the wrong time, is an aggressive action that can cause the elk to flee. But both cows and bulls can be weary of this type of aggression. Sounding ?big? has nothing to do with it.
My 2-cents and worth nothing more!
For bulls it\'s about opportunity and dominance. Every bull has the instinct to breed and most of their vocalizations during rut is directed at keeping or attracting cows by announcement and dominant expression. Mature bulls can intimidate juvenile bulls with vocal expression, but not other mature bulls. However, one mature bull can be more aggressive than another.
Bulls know who the other bulls are in the area. They bachelor up with these bulls during the summer months and know exactly what the pecking order is. That?s why fights are very rare but when they do occur it?s usually because of a wondering bull or you have two bulls considered equal. When a hunter gets close to a herd bull, there?s a new sound on the block and the herd bull does not know where he ranks. Aggressive calling by the hunter can lead the bull to believe that this intruder is hell bent on stealing his herd. Some will slip out without a fight and others will come to meet the aggression.
Sounding like a young bull in a setup can be a good tactic because it creates an opportunity for mature bulls. So, can you sound too big? Yes, on rare occasion a very young bull will gain cows early in the season and keep them into rut. He?ll act as the herd bull as long as a mature bull doesn?t come along. Most mature herd bulls are not intimidated by ?other? mature bulls including you the hunter. Getting in close, and bugling at the wrong time, is an aggressive action that can cause the elk to flee. But both cows and bulls can be weary of this type of aggression. Sounding ?big? has nothing to do with it.
My 2-cents and worth nothing more!
John, your post has got me to thinking about this some more. I agree. As I was thinking, a reminder came that being too aggressive, where we hunt is bad mojo. I keep calls short 1-2 seconds and usually just two notes. I killed a 4x4 herd bull a few years ago. I don\'t think he wanted anything to do with a big bull.
Flystrait: If you want long threads avoid technical questions. If you ask technical questions be prepared to help answer it. We all have some experience, but the tougher the question the, the fewer people have significant information to go on. We have some very skilled hunters hanging out here, and they would be an asset on any elk forum. There are not many out there that will call for them. Still they won\'t make you a long thread. You will get your answer without a lot of fluff or garbage.
Flystrait: If you want long threads avoid technical questions. If you ask technical questions be prepared to help answer it. We all have some experience, but the tougher the question the, the fewer people have significant information to go on. We have some very skilled hunters hanging out here, and they would be an asset on any elk forum. There are not many out there that will call for them. Still they won\'t make you a long thread. You will get your answer without a lot of fluff or garbage.
I don\'t believe we can ever sound too big. What I mean by this is you bugle for what you call in. If you bugle small you will call in immature elk for the most part. If you bugle mature you will call mature Bulls in tone pitch and intensity in the key in all calling. There can many voice variations from elk example is a small 5 point sounding like the biggest mature bull around. My montra is bugle for what you want to kill, and yes there are many ways to bugle In cows as well. Hope this makes some sense
Glacier Country
New member
- Nov 13, 2013
- 177
I remember Dan Moore telling me ages ago that if you want to kill big herd bulls that you can not sound too big. Dan was referring to the Mature 300 plus inch herd bulls that he is after. Those are the same type bulls that I believe flystraight is targeting as well. Dan has a High pitched,growly nasty bugle, that if you heard it there is no question that he is impersonating a Mature bull. Also no question that he is challenging the herd bulls dominance.
No doubt that this tactic is not for everyone. It is also hard to question the number of guys here that do some very similar things and call in and shoot nice big mature herd bulls every year. He also tells me not to cow call and I would kill bigger bulls.
No doubt that this tactic is not for everyone. It is also hard to question the number of guys here that do some very similar things and call in and shoot nice big mature herd bulls every year. He also tells me not to cow call and I would kill bigger bulls.
Glacier Country
New member
- Nov 13, 2013
- 177
\"Swede\" said:
Swede, Dan told me that he only wants to sound like one elk, A bull challenging the herd bull. So he basically puts the herd bulls into the same situation time and time again. The bulls that he targets are Mature herd bulls that are vocal and will turn and fight.
He did throw some guys cow call off of a cliff one time that is a true story...\"bowhunter\" said:
His method works for not only him . There are lots guys that came into his bow shop that have used the same method, that are flat out elk slayers.
His method weeds out the bulls that are timid. If you only have herd bulls that are not older mature herd bulls this method may not be the best for your area.
He told me,\" When I started out I cow called, but I called in more cows, spikes and smaller bulls. So I figured out that if I just get close,then bugle and Challenge the herd bull, the herd bull came in looking for a fight.\" He also calls in bulls to him for himself. So that is how I learned as well. This is also why We learned to shoot them in the shirt pocket. They come in head on looking for a fight.
This method is not going to work for everybody... here are a few reasons why.
1. You have to sound real enough! Most guys don\'t practice enough to be a Confident Bugler. If you Had to pass a BUGLING TEST to get your elk licence... how confident would you be that you could pass the test? If you just hesitated for a second when asked this question, this method is not for you!
2. You have to understand which bugle to use! This is where Tone,Intensity and Pitch come into play. You have to put enough Emotion into the calling sequence at the right time, to sell the illusion.
3. You have to Believe that it will work... and not make Any cow calls. Can you do that?
4. Most guys are cow callers first, and buglers 2nd, if they bugle at all. Lets face it,most guys especially new ,are not that good at bugling, they don\'t sound that realistic.They don\'t believe in the bugle, for whatever reason. When they bugle they sound more like a little bull, or they don\'t put any emotion in the call. So they are using the bugle wrong for this application, in this scenario. So,pretty soon they then think bugling doesn\'t work...( in their experience). So after awhile, they say it doesn\'t work that well. In reality they were not using the tool the right way in this scenario.
5. Not all bulls are fighters.... At least the day that you are hunting them.... Some bulls are lovers and are going to take the cows and run. Especially,If the bull knows that he can run and jump a fence and you can\'t pressure him there in that \"Sanctuary\" Private land , Ranch, no hunting zone whatever ... it doesn\'t matter Why...If he figures out he can go there and not get pressure from you or a real satellite he is likely to avoid the fight and make a beeline there!
The bull has to feel Pressured,enough to fight. Does he have a hot cow??? Timing is everything. That is why one day he is a lover...he just bugles back at you but pushes the cows away, and the next day a cow comes into heat, he has been running off satellite bulls left and right then you show up and bugle aggressively , and he flat out dang near runs you over. Timing is everything!
6.You must understand that with this method you are targeting Mature herd bulls. You have to know how to trip their Trigger.
Troy glaciercountryhuntingcalls.com
Glacier Country
New member
- Nov 13, 2013
- 177
Yes we have herd bulls in some areas that are the same size and age class as this 5x6 bull.
for example I used an Orange Enrager to call in a bull similar to this bull a few years ago. to 11 steps. Here is a sound clip of some of the bugles that I used. First I mimic him to a T, then I tell him I am going to take his girlfriends.
Something is wrong with my quicktime player so just click on ...
Troy and Real Bull Elk2.m4a
for example I used an Orange Enrager to call in a bull similar to this bull a few years ago. to 11 steps. Here is a sound clip of some of the bugles that I used. First I mimic him to a T, then I tell him I am going to take his girlfriends.
Something is wrong with my quicktime player so just click on ...
Troy and Real Bull Elk2.m4a
elkmtngear
New member
- Aug 9, 2017
- 1,152
\"cnelk\" said:
Yep!
I agree he could be a herd bull, but my point is he may not be a bull that comes to your bugling.
Sure this may be a herd bull in your area, but in other areas he isn\'t and he may be one that takes his cows and goes away when you bugle.
IMO, it\'s all geographical.
I hunt in an OTC public land area that has lots of cow elk. So many that the DAU is undersubscribed each year for cow tags.
Areas will only hold a certain amount of elk, and if there lots of cows, there isn\'t many mature herd bulls.
Typically there are lots of \'junior bulls\'.
It\'s difficult to hunt mature herd bulls when there isn\'t many around.
Sure I can bugle with the rest of you guys, but those junior bulls sure don\'t like it when I sound \'Too Big\'
That makes for a long day in the elk woods.
Plus, I don\'t mind shooting junior bulls
Sure this may be a herd bull in your area, but in other areas he isn\'t and he may be one that takes his cows and goes away when you bugle.
IMO, it\'s all geographical.
I hunt in an OTC public land area that has lots of cow elk. So many that the DAU is undersubscribed each year for cow tags.
Areas will only hold a certain amount of elk, and if there lots of cows, there isn\'t many mature herd bulls.
Typically there are lots of \'junior bulls\'.
It\'s difficult to hunt mature herd bulls when there isn\'t many around.
Sure I can bugle with the rest of you guys, but those junior bulls sure don\'t like it when I sound \'Too Big\'
That makes for a long day in the elk woods.
Plus, I don\'t mind shooting junior bulls
