Why do bulls fight?

[Deertick]

We\'ve all heard that bulls in September have two things on their minds: Fighting and ... breeding.

And our calling is based on getting these instincts riled-up, or getting them to come in out of curiosity.

Why do bulls decide to fight?

Describe the situation that is \"perfect\" for a challenge to work.

When I think about it, it should almost never happen. A bull that hears a smaller bull challenge him won\'t be impressed enough to believe the threat. If he hears a larger bull challenge him, he will tuck tail and run.

At what point does a bull -- with cows or alone -- decide \"enough is enough\" and decide to go John Wayne?

The answer is really important to creating a set-up that works, versus one that gets ignored or one that sends a bull running.

 

[OldMan]

A mature bull won\'t back off from a fight. Even if the other bull is bigger. Only the youngsters take off.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Bulls have two things on there mind during this time, breeding and survival. Fighting and calling are means to breed as many cows as possible.

+1 on what Pete says. I\'ve never seen a mature herd bull drop his cows and run away over a hunters challenge.

 

[AndyJ]

I swear I\'m not trying to be argumentative. Maybe it\'s a regional thing, but on only one occasion have I seen a bull \"accept\" the challenge and I have personally seen several times when a decent bull with cows tucked tail and left his cows to another more aggressive bull. Some of you may know who Dan Moore is. If you don\'t...the guy knows his bulls. He said something once that I have seen to be correct more times than not. I am paraphrasing but basically he said, \"If I hear two bulls bugling and I blow a bugle, the one that runs away is the herd bull\". Lots of guys can say and prove the exact opposite. Pete and John clearly have not had the same experience as myself, but just to throw it out there, it does happen that a mature bull will back down without a fight.

 

[Deertick]

So what makes them fight?

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

I swear I\'m not trying to be argumentative. Maybe it\'s a regional thing, but on only one occasion have I seen a bull \"accept\" the challenge and I have personally seen several times when a decent bull with cows tucked tail and left his cows to another more aggressive bull. Some of you may know who Dan Moore is. If you don\'t...the guy knows his bulls. He said something once that I have seen to be correct more times than not. I am paraphrasing but basically he said, \"If I hear two bulls bugling and I blow a bugle, the one that runs away is the herd bull\". Lots of guys can say and prove the exact opposite. Pete and John clearly have not had the same experience as myself, but just to throw it out there, it does happen that a mature bull will back down without a fight.

Your not argumentative.....difference of opinion maybe. :upthumb: A one sided forum leads to boring threads!

Nothing against Dan Moore cuz I know he\'s an elk killing machine and I would never challenge his tactics! But I don\'t understand why a healthy and energized herd bull would leave is harem behind? Does he mean run away with the cows?

 

[Deertick]

Does he mean run away with the cows?

That\'s sure the way I read it.

I\'d look at Andy/Big Dan\'s point like this: You\'ve heard two bulls bugling, then the hunter bugles, and one runs away.

Let\'s look at that from the perspective of those two bulls that were originally bugling. One was a challenger. He already had fighting on his mind. One was the herd bull. He might have fought, but now he has two knuckle-head challengers to deal with, so ... time to leave.

But -- back to the original question: What makes a bull decide to fight, rather than leave?

Also: Do two bulls, neither of which has cows, ever fight each other?

 

[otcWill]

Why do they fight? I\'ve seen bulls lock antlers, push eachother around, do a lil rattling, but I\'ve only seen bulls fight a few times. What I\'m calling fight is an all out 110% effort to kill eachother. Its a sight to see and in my experience, involves blood and usually ends in both bulls completely exhausted mouths wide open. One bull always gets his butt whipped badly. I can only guess that this type of encounter always involves a cow or cows in estrous. When I\'ve seen this there are always a number of cows present and making every type of sound possible including the estrous buzz. In terms of the \"perfect\" situation, when I\'ve seen this, one bull is always pressing the herd bull while the herd bull is moving his cows away. He is already retreating but the satellite is so persistent that the herd bull is left with no choice other than to allow him to breed his cows or turn and fight. So, I\'d say that proximity to the herd and overall mood of the herd bull, assuming cow or cows are in estrous, would be the main contributing factors in creating the perfect situation for a challenge. Also, it will rarely work on the very first challenge. Persistence is key.

 

[OldMan]

This goes back to how we define what a mature bull is. Some bulls grow up to be bigger than others, but a mature bull is not a young bull with a big body, or rack. It\'s an older bull that has had his share of harems. He\'s mature in his mind through experience. I would be surprised if a bull like this backed down from another bull. I guess it could happen, but i\'ve never seen it.

I also don\'t call, so I have no idea what adding a 3rd call does to the situation. Maybe even a mature bull will back off if he thinks two bulls are coming in. I\'m not sure. I\'m more interested in where a bull comes and goes to than how they react to calls. I watch them a lot, so can only talk about what i\'ve observed.

 

[Deertick]

Also, it will rarely work on the very first challenge. Persistence is key.

That sounds like a pearl.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So what makes them fight?

We\'ll I guess my opinion is the same on this topic as is your opinion on my elk calling topics. What does it matter why they fight or what causes them to fight? Do we really need to understand why in order to kill a bull?

 

[Deertick]

What does it matter why they fight or what causes them to fight? Do we really need to understand why in order to kill a bull?

Suppose you want to \"trigger\" a fight. How would you do it?

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Knowing exactly what the bulls says in his vocalization is the first step in trying to trigger that reaction. Big difference between \"Come here\" and \"Do not come here\"

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

I swear I\'m not trying to be argumentative. Maybe it\'s a regional thing, but on only one occasion have I seen a bull \"accept\" the challenge and I have personally seen several times when a decent bull with cows tucked tail and left his cows to another more aggressive bull. Some of you may know who Dan Moore is. If you don\'t...the guy knows his bulls. He said something once that I have seen to be correct more times than not. I am paraphrasing but basically he said, \"If I hear two bulls bugling and I blow a bugle, the one that runs away is the herd bull\". Lots of guys can say and prove the exact opposite. Pete and John clearly have not had the same experience as myself, but just to throw it out there, it does happen that a mature bull will back down without a fight.

Your not argumentative.....difference of opinion maybe. :upthumb: A one sided forum leads to boring threads!

Nothing against Dan Moore cuz I know he\'s an elk killing machine and I would never challenge his tactics! But I don\'t understand why a healthy and energized herd bull would leave is harem behind? Does he mean run away with the cows?

Sorry AndyJ, I misread your post last night. After rereading it this morning, I agree with you. :upthumb: Bulls will try to avoid a fight by any means possible. Fights are rare and I think what Pete and I are saying is that if it comes to one, a mature bull that\'s smaller will try to stand his ground against a bigger mature bull.

 

[Ol' Arky]

I think they fight to 1) prove their dominance and 2) protect their herd...

I heard someone once say, compare a elk with people...

Ya\'re in a bar with ya girlfriend and across the room another guy comes in the front door and hollars \"I want ya girlfriend\"... What ya gonna do... I\'m gonna slip out the back door to live and fight another day.... BUT what if the same guy comes up to ya and get\'s in ya face and says the same thing... The fight is on since ya have no other option... Same with a herd bull, if he can retreat he will to live and fight another day but if ya get up close and personal and he has no means of escape, pack ya lunch \'cause the fight is on....

I kinda believe that is right a lot more that not not... :think: :think:

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

I\'ve oftened wondered if cows in estrus can cause a harmonal change in the bull that makes him more aggressive? Might just explain why one day the herd bull will meet the aggression and other days not.

 

[Jaquomo]

I was lucky enough to hunt relatively undisturbed elk for many years, and hunt them for the whole season in an area where the elk were very visible. A fabulous classroom. From what I\'ve observed, the only time real fights occur are usually:

- When a new bull comes into an area before the rut officially gets underway and encounters a dominant bull.

- Early in the rut when a more dominant bull traveling alone moves in on a herd with a subordinate herd bull (still mature, maybe not as tough)

- Late in the rut when two herds with mature bulls intermingle, if the two bulls don\'t know each other and haven\'t worked out a pecking order before the rut or during the summer.

I have seen bulls that were mature for this area shut up and push cows away when challenged hard by a bugle they don\'t recognize (human or elk). Especially later in the rut when they are getting worn down. I\'ve also seen the lead cows take the herd away when their bull is challenged, with the bull following behind. I believe this happens more than the former.

I was once in-between two dominant bulls in the third scenario above. They were roaring back and forth at each other as their herds came together at the top of a ridge. One was the \"big bull\" in the area all summer and fall. The other one just showed up with his herd from elsewhere. I gave a subordinate bugle from behind a small rise and the closest one (the new one) marched over to me, but before he could get to me the other one ran in and hooked him in the flank and they got it on. It happened so close that I had to step back twice, and had dirt kicked up on me. I was stepping side to side to try for a shot. When the new bull finally stepped back to get a better angle for the next hookup I shot the bigger one at 6 steps with a longbow. He ran off and the other bull thought he\'d won the fight, and started roaring and shaking his antlers as he trotted back to the herd.

The bull I shot had broken his third and fifth points in the battle. I didn\'t have a chance to go back and look for them until the next season, as it was the last day and I had to pack him out and be back to work the next morning. Never found them.