Bugle - What does it mean?

[elkmtngear]

Jeff - You\'ve talked about elk being lovers and not fighters. Do those same bulls bugle?
jf

John, taking this Season as an example; I only heard a handful of vocal bulls. Most of the bugling was going on in the very early Mornings, when the bulls were moving their cows to bed. I think as the rut progresses, it is natural for a bull to announce where he\'s going to be hanging out for the day, and the main purpose of this is to let other bulls know that this is going to be his \"temporary territory\".

I observed the same phenomenon when I went to Costa Rica last year with Howler Monkeys; just before daybreak, the mountains start to echo from different points, with each dominant male announcing his \"temporary territory\" for the day.

I hunted one drainage in the evening this Season that had 3 vocal bulls in it. One of them, I recognized from an encounter the day before, he would only chuckle. I knew he only had 3 cows, but he was a solid 290 bull. There was a bugling bull close to his position that sounded like a Satellite or younger bull; he was the most vocal of the three. Then, a little farther down the drainage, was a \"growler\". He would sound off very infrequently, but from the tone was clearly the dominant bull in the area, and certainly the reason \"chuckles\" only had 3 cows. His vocalization sounded more like an angus bull than an elk.

So, 3 different bulls with 3 different styles altogether of vocalization.

When I returned the next morning to hunt those bulls, the ONLY bull I heard was the young Satellite. All Day.

So, do they all bugle? In pressured areas such as the one I hunt, my guess is only when they NEED to. I had close encounters with 2 other bulls this Season, and one is in my freezer. Both those bulls were completely silent, never vocalized, even though I know for sure there were at least 2 vocal bulls on that same ridge.

 

[cnelk]

Jeff
I really like your \'Temporary Territory\' analogy!
Man is that so true!!!

 

[Tdiesel]

yes we dicussed that on this forum a few months back I compared it to a guy at the pool if he is the only one he doesn\'t have to overly exert that he is the best guy around (or in elk just chuckling) if another guy shows up, the guy at the pool usually flexes his muscles and sucks in his gut almost going over the top to impress the ladies that he is the best option (in elk Grunting) john and I agree here i think. I believe it is the same sound just more boistious or him stepping up his game to entice the ladies that he is the best option when another bull is around.

 

[mtnmutt]

I barely know anything about elk language. I have had struggles for over 30 years of understanding human language. In these 30 years, I picked up on understanding non-vocal language to help me understand human spoken language. I do not hear all words spoken to me, so I must fill in the gaps using other information that I take in.

Context & Body language are keys to understanding spoken language.

I have had significant hearing loss for over 30 years. I had a hearing service dog. She used her body to alert me to sounds and I watched her face and ears to help me know the direction of sounds and its intensity. Her intensity of tail wagging could also indicate if I knew the person approaching or speaking. I could read my dog\'s facial expressions and body language to help me to hear. It was not a simple list of say 5 things. It was far more than that. She was with me almost 24/7 for over 12 years.

Most of us only hear the elk sounds and do not see the elk, therefore, the missing piece is body language and perhaps context.

Context may or may not be known: As cnelk mentioned, a bugle in the middle of the day likely means the bull is bugling from his bed. Another example is whether or not cows or other bulls are nearby. We may only know the partial context of a bull bugling.

We hear a vocal sound, such as a bugle, and then formulate a partial picture from the other \"knowns\". Did you hear everything that the elk spoke? What if you only heard the bugle and not the chuckles?

All these words can sound the same to me: Cat, Bat, Lat, Mat, Pat, Gnat. If a person adds another word such as dog, now I can guess that the person either said Cat or Pat. In addition, I have used a person\'s body language to help me figure out what they may be speaking. If other people are also present, it may help me eliminate possible words they are saying or add to the list of possible words they are saying. Do the people have sad faces, happy faces or neutral faces? Sad faces may mean their Cat died. Did they say Cat with intensity and the Cat belongs to someone else, then I may guess that the person is irritated about the Cat.

No doubt many of you are able to figure out what the bugle means. Hearing a bugle means to me that it is absolutely a fantastic day in the elk woods.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So, common idea that I\'m hearing from everyone is that a bugle( standard low to high without any growls, lip bawls, or chuckles) means that the bull is advertising his location. Like mtnmutt stated, you don\'t know what the bull truly means without additional information. So when you hear only the bugle at a long distance and don\'t have any other audio or video clues then we can only assume that the bull is advertising his location. He might be looking to attract cows, warn other audio bulls( including hunters) to stay away from his location, or possibly be looking for other satellites.

Rushing into a vocal bull without knowing what he truly means is in my opinion a 1/3 chance of getting it right. Then you add all the other variable that can ruin a setup.

BTL - yes, I believe grunts and chuckles are the same thing. Grunts just being more intense. Sometimes, we as hunters have a hard time telling the difference. Why? Because they have a little intensity to them but not a lot of it. I just can\'t believe grunts are for bulls and chuckles are for cows. And the in betweens are for ??. Sorry, the elk language is not complicated like that. Chuckles, no matter what intensity are for the cows and reassure them that they are the dominant bull.

Tdiesel - you and I think a lot alike! :upthumb:

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So, notice at 1:06 how the bugle turns to an aggresive scream or roar. Was it meant for the cows or was that meant for the intruder? For me that was not a bugle at all. Had no \"typical\" features of a bugle.

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[Glacier Country]

Like WW said, listen to your dog. I can tell you that I know each of my dogs\' different barks, whines, and so on. I live with them, after all. They have a complicated language -- but they don\'t have complicated thoughts. It comes down to telling me how they feel ... hungry, grumpy, angry, on alert, etc. They\'re not asking me what I think about how Obamacare.

Well, by \"complex\" I mean that there are many vocalizations, and many patterns of vocalizations.

But ... I also said that I don\'t think WHAT they are saying is complex ... simple minds, simple thoughts.

Put another way, my dog has lots of whines, lots of barks, and lots of combinations ... that is complex ... but she doesn\'t have lots of different thoughts to express -- the variation refers to intensity, emotion, urgency, inquisitiveness ... but the thoughts themselves are simple.

Think of it as diagramming a sentence (for those who have graduated Jr. High :lol: ) ... The main part of the sentence might be \"Jack ran\" but there are tons of modifiers to put on that that explains intensity, emotion, urgency, etc. The range of adjective an elk has are less limited than some might think, but the basic \"sentences\" they have to say ... pretty limited.

As for \"nock an arrow\" ... I took that to mean Cnelk saying that if you hear a bugle, you\'ve heard an elk -- hunt it ... not that if you hear a bugle there is a particular WAY that elk HAS to be hunted.

And I agree with him ... a elk making a bugle implies that the elk exists, and if you are elk hunting, that would suggest that there is an elk to hunt.

I kind of like the logic I have copied from WW and Deertick above... When I hear an elk bugle I am just thinking game on. I just check the wind and go after him . I don\'t worry about what he is saying to who or whatever at least at this point... As a hunter I am thinking he just gave away his position and after all, I am just trying to get into a position to try to arrow him. So I check the wind and try to get as close as I can to put myself into position. Which for me means I am going to try to call him in. For some of you that means just sneaking in and making no calls at all. I am going to get the wind and get close then make a cow or bull sound based on what I think this bull will RESPOND to the best. Sometimes either a cow call or a bull call will work. Sometimes there is a clear cut answer that will get a bull to respond better,to your position.
Most of the time...I think I just use enough calls to get them to React to a Scenario that I make them believe. I paint a picture in the elks mind of whatever scenario I want them to believe. Once they are sold on what I am telling them they React by coming close enough for me to release an arrow.
It\'s not magic .... I am just telling them what they want to hear,or React to bull sounds that offend them and tick them off.
I have learned how to make them react wether it is a cow call or a bull call.
So if you are more of a cow caller you should tell a bull here I am.... He will Bugle back with a come here girl Squeal.... then you have to try get closer as he wants you to go to him or make him WANT to come to you.
I use my bugle to locate elk. So for me a bugle is an essential part of my weaponry. Most of the elk I locate are not bugling on their own before I bugle. I bugle... they respond, so I get the wind and get closer, then make a plan from there.... I hope this helps some of you. Troy Glacier Country Hunting Calls

 

[Glacier Country]

So, notice at 1:06 how the bugle turns to an aggresive scream or roar. Was it meant for the cows or was that meant for the intruder? For me that was not a bugle at all. Had no \"typical\" features of a bugle.

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The bugle at 1:06 is what I call a Dan Moore Bugle .... Very aggressive. It is intended for the bull he is marching parallel to. This is the intruders last chance to leave before he gets into a fight... as soon as they turn toward each other they fight. Each bugle in this video clip after this is an aggressive bugle warning the intruding bulls. IMO Also at the same time by doing this ... He is also showing the girls who is the boss... so they will want to breed with him, the dominant bull. This is just my IMO though.
Think about this....
If this same scenario happened in a timbered situation you could paint a picture in the herd bulls mind that a bull got lucky and stole a cow, by making aggressive cow sounds then a bugle.The herd bull might come running to retrieve the cow and make the intruder retreat.
Or just an aggressive bugle here would surely get a response from the herd bull if you can bugle close enough to the herd this bull I believe he would come to kick your butt.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

The question asked was what does a bugle mean? Yes, a bark is a bark. When our dogs give it we understand what he or she means, right? I know a lot of hunters who hear a bugle and think game on. But their game on action is based on their understanding that every bugle the bull gives is a challenge to other bulls. So I ask once again, what does a simple bugle mean?

 

[Deertick]

After the long discussions I\'ve read here, hypothesizing all sorts of meanings to all sorts of bugles, I think the only answer could be ...

that it means what ALL communication, verbal or non-verbal, regardless of species, means: Pay attention to me and my needs.

----
But what I think John is asking is if the bull actually communicates his wants and desires with a bugle, and if so, are there clues in the notes of his music that tell us?

If there are such clues in his \"music\", then where would we find them? Not just in the notes, but in the key, in crescendos and decrescendos, and in volume and pitch.

But ... back to the original answer from several forum members ... why do we want to know? And I don\'t mean that quite a sarcastically as originally stated. I mean ... is it really all that critical to know what \"needs\" the bull is communicating, or is the best use for a bugle simply to know the location of a bull?

Put another way -- Does knowing the meaning of a bugle change how you hunt the bull?

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Good thoughts tick.

So do we want to know or does knowing change how we hunt the bull? That question is answered by two types of hunters. Those that use simple cow calling only and those that have a deeper bag of calling tricks.

Take three different groups of hunters that I personally know.

Group 1: every time they hear a bugle it\'s assumed that the bull is challenging other bulls and hunt accordingly.
Group 2: every time they hear a bugle it\'s assumed the bull is looking for cows and hunt accordingly.
Group 3: every time they hear a bugle, only thing assumed is that the bull is broadcasting his physical location and hunt accordingly only when you understand the entire picture.

Those that just use cow calls, you probably don\'t need to understand what the bugle means. Knowing will not change how you hunt the bull. You move in on any vocal bull and try to convince him that he needs another cow.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Right, wrong, or indifferent....here\'s a summary.

1) A bugle has meaning.
2) When you hear a bugle, hunt the him.
3) We have to adapt our hunting techniques to the elk we hunt.
4) Time of day can determine what the bull means by his bugle.
5) A bugle is an attempt by the bull to draw attention to himself.
6) Intensity of accompanying sounds can determine the true meaning of a bugle.
7) Do we really need to understand what a bugle means?
8) Does knowing the meaning of a bugle change how you hunt the bull?


Sorry if I missed a key idea someone wanted to state.