Calling Discussion

[Swede]

Ok-Ok. I admit that I was trying to start a debate about calling on newbie Ben\'s thread. Some think calling would enhance his chances, and I have said just the opposite.
Here is my take on this matter: I agree Ben needs to start somewhere if he wants to call. Calling is certainly not the only and often not the best way to get elk. Ben would do much better by learning on the ground from his friend, assuming he is a successful caller. Everyone knows that you call from cover. So what? The bull comes and looks at your calling location from 60-100 yards away and sees no elk. He walks back and forth in the brush, turns and leaves before you have any shot at him. All you did was educate him. You cow call and he comes to see the cow, but there is none. Educated bull. He answers, but does not come. What will you do? How do you plan to get him? How do you get him to come your way? Where will you plan to set up? Are you going to tell Ben to throw a stick, roll a rock, or pour your water on the ground to entice the bull? In just the right situation that might work, but what is just the right situation?
In another scenario, he comes in silent, and sees you before you can draw and shoot. Educated bull. Considering that the bull moves to try and scent or see you, your newbie chances of killing the bull by calling are slim at best.
Set-up, hunter movement, right call for the situation are all critical. Going around tooting or mewing with a diaphragm in you mouth is worse than a waste of time. It runs off the elk you want to shoot.
Round 1: Now lets discuss, but please don\'t suggest Ben buys a Playbook, and carries that around to consult on the run. As a newbie, he would do as well to have a F150 service manual with him.

 

[cohunter14]

I will leave the how, when, and why conversation to those that have more experience with that, but I will say that I agree that he should learn how to call. Finding the elk is at least half the battle, even for archery hunters. If you can get them to be vocal and give away their position, you have options, which includes trying to punch your tag without calling as you get closer. You can try to sneak in on them or even position yourself where you believe the elk will go. But using calls to locate the elk is definitely worth learning in my opinion.

 

[iccyman001]

I think that it just like everything else, Ben should learn the basics of calling.
The reason I say this is not for him to go attempt to call in an elk on his own right away, but to be familiar with the sounds he is hearing.


That bugle that I heard, was it a location? Was it a challenge?
I hear cow calling. Why are they calling? What are they saying? Are bulls responding? Etc.....

With him having a basic level of of understanding with calling, he might be able to piece a puzzle together in the field and put together a shot.


ALSO, every encounter he has in the woods with elk will educate him for future years.
I can practice cow calls and bugles all day, but until I hear them myself in the woods, I don\'t fully know what they sound like.




My goal for going into 2015 was to have a basic level of knowledge regarding elk.
With my knowledge I was able to create many encounters with elk.
I learned so much from these encounters and once I went back out to help my buddy out, I was able to call a few elk in for him.


Every encounter will bring more knowledge, but to understand what is remotely going on, I believe Ben needs a basic understanding of calling.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

If a hunter heads out into the woods unprepaired, it doesn\'t matter what flavor of hunting, he/she will educate elk. We can\'t tell the hunter: do not tree stand hunt, spot and stalk, still hunt, or bugle chase because you might educate the elk. Every time we set foot out in the woods we run that risk.

The problem is all the commercialization. We are lead to believe that all one needs is brand X product and the elk will just come running in. So, don\'t fault the begining callers and tell them to hold off. Instead we need to encourage and warn them at the same time.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Follow up on examples.

This year my son and I bumped a spike. I called him back in 3 different times using the bark and simple cow calls. Should a newbie have these tricks in their bag? I think so. Simple and easy sounds to replicate.

A couple years ago I helped Brian(aka chuckarNut) punch his tag on a 5X5. We got into a herd that had a couple of satellites around. These satellites had come into a hunting buddy cow calls earlier that morning. No shot was taken but both satellites bumped hard. That evening is was our turn. Brian and I got in close and and worked some simple cow calls. Sure the bulls scream backed but they would not commit. I knew I had to ramp it up and force one to commit. So I worked the restless herd sequence and then trailed away from the excitement with whinny cow calls. We sucked a satellite away and Brain let an arrow fly. I think we finally got to camp at 1:00 am. Should newbies have done the same sequence as I did? No probably not. Unless they praticed a lot in the off season and really understood what the sounds meant.

So instead of telling newbies to leave the calls at home, maybe we should tell them to use calls wisely?

Maybe ChuckarNUT could share his picture of that hunt?

 

[ChukarNUT]

I know, it has been a looooong time since i posted. Life has been very busy the last 2 years building a home, working, and spending time with my quickly aging father. But after 2 successful years of rifle hunts for cows so my dad could experience the joys of elk hunting (new transplant from Illinois), i am back to archery!! Absolutely cannot wait. John and I are already making plans that was a great hunt in which John describes. Everything worked into our favor. One thing i can add is we did add alot of ground noise to the sequence to help with the realism. Stomped feet. Rolled rocks. Snapped a few branches. Really think that helped sell the scene of what should have been taking place above the hill. I do remember how thick the lodgepole were and hoping he would stop with kill zone in a lane. Sure enough 42 yards downhill when john stopped him all i could see of the bull was shoulder. Magical evening quartering that bull in the dark with his buddies serenading us with bugles! And yes that was a loooong night working and packing!!

 

[Swede]

So instead of telling newbies to leave the calls at home, maybe we should tell them to use calls wisely?

What does that mean to a newbie? I had a PSE archery instructor tell us \"practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.\" Telling someone to use their calls wisely, that has likely never hunted an elk, means nothing. I feel a new elk hunter is better off hunting with someone that can call effectively, before they venture off on their own bugling and mewing.
That is a great testimonial about John helping Chuckernut get his bull. I fail to see what that has to do with wisdom of a newbie calling. Maybe it was not intended to. I sure understand the mindset. Years ago I listened to Larry D. Jones make a calling presentation. I bought his tapes and studied them. I went about 200 miles to Springfield and bought several calls from him. I practiced all spring and summer. I thought I was ready. I was excited to get started. Sure enough, I got elk to answer right away, but killing an elk was an entirely different matter.
One thing I think has greatly improved in the last 20 years, is the amount of quality information available online, and in books, for hunters that will study calling.
Elk have changed a lot in their responses to calls over the last 25 years. I may be wrong, but based on what I have observed in the field, I doubt Larry Jones would be very effective calling elk where he hunted in the 1970s-1980s, in 2016. They are just not as willing to commit to a call like they were back then. Even if Larry has not changed his tactics, he would still be a lot better than the hunter I talked to, that had all new camo and a string of about 8 new cow calls, worn as a necklace.

 

[bowhunter]

I feel a new elk hunter is better off hunting with someone that can call effectively, before they venture off on their own bugling and mewing.

That is great advice, but it is hard to find someone that is willing to take a newbie to there hunting spot and show them how it is done. I have heard all the calling scenarios needed to call in elk. But until you actually get a chance to play them out in real life they don\'t mean much. Experience with real elk is what is needed to learn and that can take years. Then the elk go silent and change the game again. I have had a few encounters where having an idea what the elk were saying or trying to call them helped. Most times though I look at my hunting partner when I hear an elk and say what do we do now. :think: I think a newbie should learn basic calling it can\'t hurt. Unless he runs through the elk woods banging his hoochie mama.

 

[cnelk]

If someone tells me they are going elk hunting and not bringing/using a call, I think \'OK\', thats cool.
Im sure they have their reasoning, but it better be GOOD reasoning.

Even if someone doesnt use one to call IN elk, an elk call is also a very effective tool in stopping/slowing an elk AFTER it is shot.

Elk hunting isnt easy by any means.
Having/using a simple open reed cow call will definitely make it somewhat easier, so why not?

Life is about choices - choose wisely.

 

[WW]

There are many ways to hunt elk. Tree stand, still hunting, ambush, you name it! But when it come to calling, you better know what you are doing.

There are four basic calls everyone should know and learn. Location bugle, challenge bugle, cow mew, and nervous bark. That will get you started and plenty of elk have fallen to those four basic calls. The really good callers have tricks in their pocket, The biggest one is the EMOTION they can add to those four basic calls. Also understanding how to bugle to cows, raking, hucking, directing traffic, and many others.

Also, if you ever happen to run into me in the elk timber and I ask to have a look at your Hoochie Mama call, I\'ll show you just how far I can throw that damn thing :mg: :mg: :mg: :mg: :mg: !!

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So instead of telling newbies to leave the calls at home, maybe we should tell them to use calls wisely?

What does that mean to a newbie? I had a PSE archery instructor tell us \"practice does not make perfect. Perfect practice makes perfect.\" Telling someone to use their calls wisely, that has likely never hunted an elk, means nothing. I feel a new elk hunter is better off hunting with someone that can call effectively, before they venture off on their own bugling and mewing.
That is a great testimonial about John helping Chuckernut get his bull. I fail to see what that has to do with wisdom of a newbie calling. Maybe it was not intended to. I sure understand the mindset. Years ago I listened to Larry D. Jones make a calling presentation. I bought his tapes and studied them. I went about 200 miles to Springfield and bought several calls from him. I practiced all spring and summer. I thought I was ready. I was excited to get started. Sure enough, I got elk to answer right away, but killing an elk was an entirely different matter.
One thing I think has greatly improved in the last 20 years, is the amount of quality information available online, and in books, for hunters that will study calling.
Elk have changed a lot in their responses to calls over the last 25 years. I may be wrong, but based on what I have observed in the field, I doubt Larry Jones would be very effective calling elk where he hunted in the 1970s-1980s, in 2016. They are just not as willing to commit to a call like they were back then. Even if Larry has not changed his tactics, he would still be a lot better than the hunter I talked to, that had all new camo and a string of about 8 new cow calls, worn as a necklace.

ChuckerNuts bull by itself has very little to do with newbies calling. Instead, the moral of both stories was to show that newbies can bring in elk with simple calls but at times more advanced calling may be required.

Using \"calls wisely\" is just that simple. For example, I would encourage a new hunters to practice their calls but would suggest they keep them in the bag if they were to hunt Swede\'s area. Now, come over to my hole and you would be foolish not to use your calls. To tell a newbie to not practice/use their calls until you have a few elk hunting years under their belt is setting them up for possible missed opportunity.

My 2-cents.

JF

 

[otcWill]

Some good advice here from some accomplished elk hunters. The theme, learn to use calls and DEFINITELY bring them with you. There is so much information available out there that a dedicated hunter really has no excuse not to at least learn the basics. No, I wouldn\'t recommend a new hunt try simulating anything terribly complicated but learning the basics combined with other noises such as stomping, raking, and rock rolling can be deadly. My huntn buddy and I called this gross 320\" bull in on our 2nd elk hunt 10 years ago with a couple simple cow calls, some stomping, stick breaking and raking. We wouldn\'t even have known he was there if not for doing some calling. Oh yea, this dude came to the infamous Hoochie Mama! Say it aint so :lol:

 

[Old School]

Great thread here guys. Appreciate the input. I\'m definitely a newbie and can relate to what is being said. What is second nature to experienced elk hunters is completely foreign to a newbie. And without a mentor, we are going to learn one way - by being out there and screwing up/educating several/multiple/many elk. It would be the equivalent to someone who has never turkey hunted showing up in Missouri with a handful of calls and trying to kill a turkey. Is it possible? Sure it is. But you will fail on many that I would have easily taken. Way too many variables to explain or teach in an instruction manual - experience with someone who knows what they are doing is absolutely priceless.

Same feeling I have out West, thinking \"if I had someone here who knew what they were doing, this would be a dead elk.\" These forums are at least helpful to give us some words of advice/wisdom to get started.

Just my 2 cents.

--Mitch

 

[cohunter14]

So, if most here believe calling is helpful, what would you experienced guys suggest for a newbie? What calls should they learn and how should they plan on implementing those calls during their hunt? Any videos you would suggest? What shouldn\'t they do?

 

[Swede]

Derek, I think you are right. Is not calling for yourself the first time out a missed opportunity or better way to learn? Only you the hunter can decide. You ask a great question. A part of the problem is relating what you read plus what you hear/see on video, to your area, and just what does it mean?
I laughed to myself the other day when my newbie neighbor said he heard a grouse drumming on his last elk outing in late October. I asked if he was cow calling. He said he had been. That neighbor did not even know he had a response from an elk.
I was with my son years ago when I said that I heard some elk on the other side of the ridge. He did not believe me until we crossed over to look. He thought it was birds chirping. Oly did not have a lot of elk experience yet. I am confident Oly knows the difference today.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So, if most here believe calling is helpful, what would you experienced guys suggest for a newbie? What calls should they learn and how should they plan on implementing those calls during their hunt? Any videos you would suggest? What shouldn\'t they do?

Newbies should listen to every resource possible but be skeptical of commercialized products. Not saying that they are all crap, but one should remember that companies are about making money. I liken it to the \"shinny\" new toy that will get the hunter one step closer to punching their tag on a record bull. It\'s not about most useful or helpful, but what can a company sell. I shouldn\'t mention names...but I\'m going to anyways....Primos.

Instead the hunter needs to hold more weight on the WW\'s, CNELK\'s, Swede\'s, Big Dan\'s, and Jaquomo\'s of the hunting community. But still, they need to be their own hunter and think things out. Don\'t take what one person says as Gospel. But why should you listen to these guys? Easy, they can be wrong and will admit they can be wrong. Commercialized products will never have an admitted fault and will compound wrong information year after year. I\'ve never heard a big name publicly say......\"Dang we sure over thought that one\".

So here\'s my 2-cents. Some sounds will lead the hunter to eventually be a big caller and yet still give them the basics for simple calling. Newbies should start out with the basics sounds.

Cow mew
Bark
Contact bugle

Then as the grow they\'ll be able to branch out.
Cow mew -> cow whine -> excited cow
Bark -> chuckles
Contact Bugle -> warning bugle

 

[Swede]

John makes a great point. Certainly he, others, and I all hunt different areas and have adapted to the environment we hunt. We have our biases just like anyone else. As in much of life, things are never cut and dried or simple. If that were true, archery elk hunters would be enjoying a 90%+ success average. Instead it is nearer 10%. What we post is only out of a sincere desire to help others, especially newer hunters.

 

[Old School]

So...you experienced elk hunters - give us some applications of when you use the 3 calls that John mentioned. Start the morning and walk us through a simulated elk hunt. Is that possible??? I\'m trying to relate it back to turkey hunting, because that\'s what I\'ve known and done for 30+ years. And there are just so many scenarios which require different tactics and calls - sometimes you charge ahead when they are hung up and won\'t come in...sometimes you back up like you are walking away while softly calling. Sometimes you\'re aggressive in calling and imitating or challenging the lead hen...sometimes you are quiet and play hard to get. All dictated by what the gobbler is doing. That\'s where perhaps I\'m hung up - If I learn those 3 basic elk sounds, how do you use them in the hunt while interacting with a bull or the herd? In other words, I contact bugle and a bull bugles back. I close the gap and give him a cow mew - he answers again, whats next??? Just looking for as much pre-hunt experience before I hit the mountains next year with my boys.

Thanks, Mitch

 

[cnelk]

Mitch,
Here is one of our tactics.

We get to a pre-determined spot just before daylight. We listen for any bugles and pinpoint them. If we hear a bugle, we will wait for daylight, slip in as close as we can, give a mew and see what happens. Nothing can be written for what happens next as each and every time is different. Just be prepared to adjust, move fast and even shoot fast.

If we don?t hear a bugle, we position ourselves so everyone can be a shooter and a caller. We will start with a few mews, wait a minute and do a few more, calling back and forth. Maybe break some branches, stomp a little, and mew some more. Sometimes throw a small bull squeal into the mix.
We will do this for 15-20 minutes. All the time listening for a bugle in the distance. If one does bugle, we quickly gather our stuff up and head in that direction and start all over again.

If, we don?t hear any bugles, we will move about 1/3 mile and do another cold calling setup again. We will do this until the thermals switch ? 10-11am and then head back to camp.

 

[Swede]

My calling is different than most. The area I hunt is very over-called. Unskilled hunters have bought the call for success line, but are clueless in their use. The vast majority of the elk soon leave the public land, and go to a nearby ranch where I can see 200 at a time. You can call at any time and they will answer, but they don\'t come.
I don\'t call vary often in the first half of the season. If I do, it is only a short two note bugle, after rubbing a tree. This is designed to give the impression I am a lone bull. I walk about 10-15 yards to a preplanned location to wait for something to come around. I will do this for up to an hour, as bulls often take their time to come. This type of calling does not run off the elk. They are not being pursued.
Later in the season I may start with location bugles to find elk. If I find one I wait to determine if it has cows or not. If there are no cows, I don\'t pressure it. I will get close and chuckle and maybe make some short nonthreatening bugles. If it is a herd bulls, then cow call then move in close and use a threatening bugle.
Some of this I have adapted on my own for the area I hunt. Some of this I have picked up, reading, watching videos, or here on BTO and other elk hunting forums. Elk habits have changed as well as hunter numbers over the past 25 years where I hunt. I have had to adapt to continue to succeed.
Where my hunting area, trail cameras show a lot of good bulls before the season. Within one week of the start of archery season, at least 90% are gone. After about 3 weeks a few of those that left trickle back onto the National Forest. There are a lot of open roads on the Forest. Hunters drive every one. Some hunters are looking to fill their tags with a drive-by by shooting. Some bugle from their truck. I have been working a bull that got close to the road. As soon as it was within view of the road, some hunters came driving up. They started bugling away from the pickup while the engine was still running. Elk are not necessarily the brightest animals on the planet, but they are not stupid either.