Calling Discussion

I feel that commercialization made elk calling more complicated than it really is. It?s hard for me to believe that the same sound can have different meanings depending on the circumstances. In order to believe that, one would have to assume that the elk have a high level of intelligence. Sorry, but they are animals that have instinct and have no high level of reasoning or logic. They react based on their environment. So for me a bugle is a bugle, a bark is a bark, and a mew is a mew. Simple?simple?.simple!

Intensity level of the sound does indicated importance of the vocalization or a better yet, urgency. Elk vocalize because they want an action from another elk. Even warning type sounds call for an action. The action is do not come this way!

Also length of the sound given has meaning. It?s a proven fact the when a longer sound is given, the easier it is to pin point the source location. So a nice long bugle defines the bulls location at a greater distance.

So, how do I know what sounds to use and when? Well, first I?ve define what some basic sounds mean! Without definitions you?ll find it hard to adapt to the situation if it changes.

Bugle: Announcing the geographical location of ?the? elk.
Chuckle: Expression to prove ?he? is the dominant bull. A cow?s natural instinct is go bread with the most dominant. So in a sense, it?s an invitation.
Growl: Warning.
Moans: Agitated.
Bark: Alerted, asking for identification. The exact same reasons you?d hear a bark from your dog.

So every bugle I hear I know it\'s exact meaning based upon my definitions. Example, from a herd bull I might get the following response to my bugle. Growl into a bugle followed by chuckles. The expression is warning, I?m right here, and I?m the dominant bull.

Another example is for a hunter to give a short bugle followed by chuckles when in close to a herd bull. Short bugles indicate that you are talking to elk within close proximity and chuckles would be an attempt to show ?his? cows that you are a dominant bull. Exactly what you?d hear a real satellite do when trying to hook a cow or two. ;-)

Every situation can be different. So I remember my 7 Golden elk calling rules.

1) Elk are curious.
2) Elk are social and herd animals.
3) Bulls would rather you go to them.
4) All bulls have the instinct to rut.
5) Bulls will try to keep every cow.
6) Bulls will try gain any cow but not at the risk of losing one they already own.
7) Herd bulls can be challenged for dominance, but only when you\'re within their comfort zone.

When I enter into a calling sequence, I assess the situation, define the bull I?m hunting, and rely on my definitions and rules.

My 2-cents and worth nothing more!
 
Thanks for the responses and advice here guys. Can\'t wait to put it in practice next year. Still have to decide on a state.

--Mitch
 
\"Old School\" said:
Thanks for the responses and advice here guys. Can\'t wait to put it in practice next year. Still have to decide on a state.

--Mitch

I didn\'t mean to directly avoid your previous question, ok maybe I did. :) I don\'t mind sharing my sequences but I don\'t think that helps the newbie. Sure they can be successful if they replicate them, but situations can change in seconds and by understanding the hunter can adapt appropriately. The callers I help, the first thing I do is tell them to build there own sequences and understand them. :upthumb:

Here a example for a newbie. Given these facts: elk are social animals, all bulls have the instinct to rut, lesser bulls get pushed out of herds, and the definition of the bark. The newbie might consider what happens if they bump and single elk? Possibility it\'s a bull? What should the newbie do? Maybe give a few barks followed by several mews. This worked on my bull this year and I called him back in three times until he was in a spot that posed a shot. :)

But what if the lone elk is smarter, hangs up out range, and chuckles at you? These situation changes are exactly why I encourage every newbie to understand instead of just replicating. So what would you do if the bull hangs up? I know what I\'d do. :D

Just my 2nd 2-cents and worth nothing more.
 
John - that\'s what I was looking for when I was asking for sequences of examples. Thanks. Let me just give it a \"newbie try\" - he\'s chucking indicating he is the dominant bull and bulls want to rut and they prefer the cows to come to him. He\'s already heard me mew so he thinks I\'m a cow. Id respond to his chuckle by going to him while making some noise like a cow - roll some rocks and snap some sticks - he\'s expecting me to come to him - so go at him and have the longbow ready for a quick shot - he is by himself, so there is only one set of eyes to fool.
ok. There you have it from a newbie - please critique my logic.

--Mitch
 
Mitch: Here is my take on your plan. If you are by yourself, your chances are very slim at pulling that off. The bull will be standing, looking for you. That elk is much quicker than you and your longbow. By yourself you might make a few mews then sound like a cow in pain. Follow that with a quick small bull bugle just a little closer to the bull. Quietly move off to the side and throw a rock down where the cow was, and wait. Let me assure you these things are always easier on the forum than in the field. :D
 
\"Old School\" said:
John - that\'s what I was looking for when I was asking for sequences of examples. Thanks. Let me just give it a \"newbie try\" - he\'s chucking indicating he is the dominant bull and bulls want to rut and they prefer the cows to come to him. He\'s already heard me mew so he thinks I\'m a cow. Id respond to his chuckle by going to him while making some noise like a cow - roll some rocks and snap some sticks - he\'s expecting me to come to him - so go at him and have the longbow ready for a quick shot - he is by himself, so there is only one set of eyes to fool.
ok. There you have it from a newbie - please critique my logic.

--Mitch


Another nut from the peanut gallery here(so take this with a grain of salt), but I am standing still or moving back, not moving in.
If I am in close enough (and trust me, you\'ll know when you\'re close enough) and he is worked up, then I will stop and prepare.

I am a very aggressive person until a certain point. Like Swede said, they are going to be faster than me, so I don\'t wanna try to battle his senses going into him

I plant in a spot and look for draw points and wait. I look for movement or that twig snap and draw.


I also mentioned I\'d move back. If he decides he doesn\'t want to come into me, then I\'ll start \"wondering off\" and continue mewing as I do.
This is all in hopes that he deems me too valuable to lose and comes after me.




I had lots of encounters this year with chuckling elk, but I wanna tell you about 3.


Day 1 and still before the rut, I got into a bull that was sending out locations for a while.
I snuck up within 100 yards and started mewing. Sure enough he responded. I snuck in 20 more yards and mewed more.....
He responded again....

This is when I decided to hit him with a challenge at the beginning of his response.
Next thing I knew I saw him round up his cows and run with them.

DOH!

Encounter 2: I got into a bull screaming his head off and started mewing. He responded and chuckled a bunch, but he wouldn\'t budge.
He was dead set on me coming to him. (mind you I was about 60 yards away) This is when I decided to try my moving out tactic. I slowly started walking backwards and making some noise with some mews. Sure enough.... HE FOLLOWED!!!!

The only issue.... I lost shooting light...


Another encounter is located in my first post in this thread:

<!-- l --><a class=\"postlink-local\" href=\"http://www.backtrakoutdoors.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2327\" onclick=\"window.open(this.href);return false;\">viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2327</a><!-- l -->


It was a good one!
 
Mitch, I give my plan only slightly better odds than yours. The problem I see is that the bull is telling you to come. You obviously can\'t go to him, so you need to fool him into coming to you, or allowing you to sneak around and come in to him from a different angle. That is a tall order. All that and we have not discussed the wind situation, which could farther compliment things. Don\'t give up.
 
I heard a quote last night that I found interesting.

\" If you want to find a bull. Bugle.\"

\" If you want to kill a bull. Cow call\"


This bit of info might have helped you on Day 2 encounter Dan.
 
Depending on how close the bull was, I\'d do the same thing as Mitch. Let says the bulls hangs up at 150 yards. You the \"cow\" are not really his yet so I would close the distance a little. The closer you get, the more he will feel he owns you. Be ready as you move in as he might meet you half way. ;)

Never break cover to gain yardage on a bull. I\'ve made this mistake several times in the past and it\'s never in the hunters favor.

I like to give a bull what he wants until there is no shot opportunity or things become stalled. Then I switch it up and give the bull what he doesn\'t, the possibility of loosing a cow he thinks he owns.

So if your up close, say 60 yards and there is no way to move closer, I might do one of two things depending on what I think of the bull. If I feel he\'s a fighter, I will run a hooked cow sequence like Swede suggests. If I think he\'s a lover, I might just start moving away with really whinny cow calls. Sometimes its just a guess as to what temperament he has.

Mitch - In my opinion your logic is spot on. Do you want another typical calling situation a hunter might encounter?
 
John: Have you ever made a tactic like Mitch describes work? I have tried it, or something very similar quite a few times. What I have seen happen, is either the bull stays, and continues to call, or he gets up and comes but hangs up. If he comes, it is only part of the way that is necessary. He will pace back and forth behind cover, and look for the cow (you) When he is satisfied there is no real cow, he leaves.
My son Oly got a bull a couple years ago to come to a cow call. That is not unusual as bowhunter said. Oly\'s bull was not stationary and never chuckled that I heard of. It just got close enough for Oly to make a very long bow shot work. The bull was leaving when Oly hit him. It was way beyond long bow range. Heck it was way beyond my comfort zone.
The closest I ever got to pulling off that stunt was one morning in mid season. I was cow calling every minute or two as I moved through the timber and brush. The bull started chuckling. I cow called and moved around and up and down the hill a little, trying to get close enough for a shot. This scene continued for awhile until I slipped away for real. I decided to go above him and bugle. He would not even answer the bugle. I went to camp for lunch and came back in the mid afternoon and relocated him. I never could get him to expose himself. Finally he caught sight of me when he and I moved at the same time. Like I said at first this was at least one of my closest encounters of that kind. I can\'t say how many times they will stay away and call, or just go back and forth looking for the cow then they left.
 
Swede - I know the bulls you hunt, so that doesn\'t surprise me. :D

Yes, I\'ve got both to work but not every time. That\'s why it\'s called hunting and not shooting. :p Why it\'s never worked for you, I can only make a guess. But like you\'ve stated in the past, you\'re elk are rarely vocal and the elk I usually hunt are extremely vocal.

Chukarnuts 5x5 bull discussed above is a great example of trailing away while giving cow sounds. I had to pre-sale it with a restless herd sequence but the general idea is the same. And a few years ago we punched a 4x4 5 miles into wilderness. One thing I learned that trip, a hooked cow sequence can work if the bull is hot enough.

I feel that the closer you \"the cow\" gets to the bull, the more he claims ownership. The hotter the cows are in the surrounding area the more likely the bulls instinct to breed will override his cautionary instinct.

So how about this one for Mitch. Say Swede missed the cow he shot this year and the cow and bull ran different directions. As its drawing close to the end of the day, Swede hears the bull chuckling for his lost cow. What should Swede do? Oh, and Swede has just climbed down out of his tree stand to relieve himself. Later, he blamed it on Oly\'s chili he ate the night before. :)
 
\"iccyman001\" said:
\"Old School\" said:
John - that\'s what I was looking for when I was asking for sequences of examples. Thanks. Let me just give it a \"newbie try\" - he\'s chucking indicating he is the dominant bull and bulls want to rut and they prefer the cows to come to him. He\'s already heard me mew so he thinks I\'m a cow. Id respond to his chuckle by going to him while making some noise like a cow - roll some rocks and snap some sticks - he\'s expecting me to come to him - so go at him and have the longbow ready for a quick shot - he is by himself, so there is only one set of eyes to fool.
ok. There you have it from a newbie - please critique my logic.

--Mitch


Another nut from the peanut gallery here(so take this with a grain of salt), but I am standing still or moving back, not moving in.
If I am in close enough (and trust me, you\'ll know when you\'re close enough) and he is worked up, then I will stop and prepare.

I am a very aggressive person until a certain point. Like Swede said, they are going to be faster than me, so I don\'t wanna try to battle his senses going into him

I plant in a spot and look for draw points and wait. I look for movement or that twig snap and draw.


I also mentioned I\'d move back. If he decides he doesn\'t want to come into me, then I\'ll start \"wondering off\" and continue mewing as I do.
This is all in hopes that he deems me too valuable to lose and comes after me.




I had lots of encounters this year with chuckling elk, but I wanna tell you about 3.


Day 1 and still before the rut, I got into a bull that was sending out locations for a while.
I snuck up within 100 yards and started mewing. Sure enough he responded. I snuck in 20 more yards and mewed more.....
He responded again....

This is when I decided to hit him with a challenge at the beginning of his response.
Next thing I knew I saw him round up his cows and run with them.

DOH!

Encounter 2: I got into a bull screaming his head off and started mewing. He responded and chuckled a bunch, but he wouldn\'t budge.
He was dead set on me coming to him. (mind you I was about 60 yards away) This is when I decided to try my moving out tactic. I slowly started walking backwards and making some noise with some mews. Sure enough.... HE FOLLOWED!!!!

The only issue.... I lost shooting light...


Another encounter is located in my first post in this thread:

<!-- l --><a class=\"postlink-local\" href=\"http://www.backtrakoutdoors.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2327\" onclick=\"window.open(this.href);return false;\">viewtopic.php?f=24&t=2327</a><!-- l -->


It was a good one!

Day 1 - Was 100 yards close enough to poss a real threat? Was he rounding up his cows or was his cows leading him away?

Just my dos centavos!
 
I\'ll make the assumption that there is enough time to pursue the bull. I would get in between them and maybe be more passive - see if he will come halfway to the real cow if she is talking. More of a silent ambush. If there isn\'t enough light left, leave and come back to the area in the morning.
 
\"JohnFitzgerald\" said:
Day 1 - Was 100 yards close enough to poss a real threat? Was he rounding up his cows or was his cows leading him away?

Just my dos centavos!

That crossed my mind. My cow calls are too sexy and make most cows jealous and then run away with the bulls....





















:lol:
 
In all seriousness JF, I don\'t know.


I figured I had cow called long enough where if the cows didn\'t want me in their group they would have left earlier.
He also was located in this spot for hours, I believe they were going to bed up there.

It wasn\'t until I hit him hard with a challenge that he rounded them up and beat feet.


That is just what I put together with the scenario, but I could be wrong!
 
Don\'t write about chili. I still remember the time I was up most of a night after eating Staggs two bean chili. I could not stand to be with me. Fortunately I was alone from the beginning. Oly\'s chili might be good, but he might slip me some out of a can. :eek:
John, I am going to have to head up your way. I must have thought Mitch\'s trick would work as I have basically tried it several times with just slight differences.
Isn\'t the sequence you describe the same as Dan and I suggested to counter Mitch\'s? Mitch was going continue in toward the bull, bow in hand until he got his shot. Dan was suggesting what you did, and I was being lazy and just pitched a stone off into the brush trying to make the bull believe the cow was leaving. We are not accidently agreeing here are we? :lol:
Mitch, you are getting the idea, but you really need to watch the wind in the situation you describe. If any of the elk see or smell you it is game over. If I can get as close as you describe, I would bugle and try to make the bull have to come to run me away from his cows. Why would the bull come if you cow call while you are with the cows? That is one I have never tried.
 
Swede,

I do like the rock idea.
I will have to try that sometime.


My luck I\'ll be in an area with no rocks around :lol:
 
\"Swede\" said:
Don\'t write about chili. I still remember the time I was up most of a night after eating Staggs two bean chili. I could not stand to be with me. Fortunately I was alone from the beginning. Oly\'s chili might be good, but he might slip me some out of a can. :eek:
John, I am going to have to head up your way. I must have thought Mitch\'s trick would work as I have basically tried it several times with just slight differences.
Isn\'t the sequence you describe the same as Dan and I suggested to counter Mitch\'s? Mitch was going continue in toward the bull, bow in hand until he got his shot. Dan was suggesting what you did, and I was being lazy and just pitched a stone off into the brush trying to make the bull believe the cow was leaving. We are not accidently agreeing here are we? :lol:
Mitch, you are getting the idea, but you really need to watch the wind in the situation you describe. If any of the elk see or smell you it is game over. If I can get as close as you describe, I would bugle and try to make the bull have to come to run me away from his cows. Why would the bull come if you cow call while you are with the cows? That is one I have never tried.

Swede - I think we are agreeing. I support Mitch\'s idea to close the gap and got the sense that you didn\'t. Maybe I misunderstood. Sorry mi amigo! And yes, being seen or winded is a complete deal breaker.

Mitch - I say that a bull will try to keep every cow. Swede\'s bull has onwership and is looking for her. If wind and daylight allowed, I\'d give a single bark followed by a mew. Something a newbie can easily learn to do with a little pratice. I believe this is where we come full circle.
 

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