DEBATE THIS....!!!

[cohunter14]

25 yd bowshot is very doable if you can keep yourself together. i will argue that MOST people, not talking about anyone in particular, cannot make a 400 yd shot. i live in mo and i know tons of guys that say they can make that shot, and most have never even shot a target that far. so much goes into a shot like that besides putting the crosshairs on the target and shooting. even if your gun has a 1inch moa, that 2 at 200 4 at 300 8 at 400. so completely taking out human error, wind, temp, etc your at the edge of the vital signs with a well shooting rifle. yes, some can, but most cant. for the record, i cant.

Good points Scott. MOA actually coincides with the yardage, so a 1\" group at 100 yards (1 MOA) is a 4\" group at 400 yards. But still, shooting 1\" groups at 100 yards requires a solid rest at a minimum. When you figure that the majority of hunters are more like \"Minute of Pie Plate,\" that group expands quite a bit. Say you have a decent enough rest and can calm your nerves to shoot what would equate to a 4\" group at 100 yards...that is 16\" at 400 yards.

At 400 yards, you also have to factor in bullet drop. Take one of the most popular hunting rounds out there, a 180 grain Core Lokt out of a 30-06 and you have over 26\" of drop at 400 yards. That is significant and something that most people wouldn\'t know offhand.

 

[Swede]

I did not understand Brad\'s question to cover which is easier; to stalk within 400 yards or 25 yards. It seemed to be whether a rifle kill at 400 yards was as easy, or easier than a bow kill at 25 yards. For all of the reason mentioned above and more, including practice, the 400 yard kill would be much tougher for me.

 

[WW]

I used to wrangle dudes (or duds) ! And I can see where a lot of you guys might think the 400yard rifle shot might be the tougher choice. We always took our hunters out the first day they arrived and sighted them in at 100 yards. There were two purposes for doing this. 1) was to make sure their gun was properly sighted in. 2) was to see just how proficient the shooter actually was. Some of these guys couldn\'t hit an apple crate at that range, let alone come close to MOA groups even if the gun was capable of shooting that well.

For the good shooters though, I recommended the rule of three which is pretty much good for most elk rifles. (3 inches hi at 100 yards will allow you to hold dead on out to 300 yards for (most) elk calibers. Placing the crosshairs right on the top of an elks back will let the bullet drop right in the bread basket at 400. This rule of three is for 40mm scopes and can be different for the big objective lense scopes a lot of guys use today.

And I would never recommend long range shooting without a good set of shooting sticks from a prone or sitting position. But the shot is very doable for a good rifleman that is properly sighted in.

 

[cohunter14]

Good information Bill, and I think that rule of three works very well for most rifles inside of 300 yards, like you said. One question: why does the rule change for larger objective scopes?

One thing to keep in mind for anyone reading this in regards to putting the crosshairs on the top of the back at 400 yards is that it might work for elk, but probably not for deer. Using that 180 grain Core Lokt out of a 30-06 as an example, at 8,000ft and a 40 degree temperature, your bullet would hit 19\" low if it was sighted in 3\" high at 100 yards. That could be in the kill zone on an elk that is about 25\" from back to brisket, but would miss completely on an average size deer that is 18\" back to brisket.

 

[WW]

According to my chart, a 30 06 with a 180 gr bullet is as follows;
+1.6 @ 50 yards, +3 @ 100, peak trajectory= +3@125, targeted for 215, hold dead on @ 260, hold over 12 inches @ 340 yards. Why 180s? Are you hunting elk or griz. LOL!

This information was printed by Warren Page in Field & Stream in the early 60s. At that time there were no scopes with 50 or 60 mm objective ends Also, there were no see through mounts. The data was meant to be used with scopes mounted so the reticle was 1 1/2 inches above the bore. If you shoot with a larger objective scope mounted higher, you will need to do some experimenting.

Hope this is understandable.

 

[Buglemaster]

Some good \"dope\" you guys are throwing out right here! Now figure in say mabe a 10-20 mph cross wind and mabe a 25-30 degree uphill/ downhill angle. There\'s a lot more to it than how much that bullet is going to drop & conditions are nearly always less than perfect. At least for me. The last bull I killed with a rifle was at a ranged 445 yards with my 270 & 140 gr boat tails . I still am extremely proud of that one.

 

[cohunter14]

According to my chart, a 30 06 with a 180 gr bullet is as follows;
+1.6 @ 50 yards, +3 @ 100, peak trajectory= +3@125, targeted for 215, hold dead on @ 260, hold over 12 inches @ 340 yards. Why 180s? Are you hunting elk or griz. LOL!

This information was printed by Warren Page in Field & Stream in the early 60s. At that time there were no scopes with 50 or 60 mm objective ends Also, there were no see through mounts. The data was meant to be used with scopes mounted so the reticle was 1 1/2 inches above the bore. If you shoot with a larger objective scope mounted higher, you will need to do some experimenting.

Hope this is understandable.

That all makes sense Bill, and each bullet will drop differently based on the ballistic coefficient of the bullet as well as the speed you are pushing it. So those numbers could definitely work for a different 180 grain bullet. The atmospheric conditions also matter, but not as much.

As far as the larger objectives, they can change bullet drop, but not too drastically. The difference at 400 yards using the same bullet and atmospheric conditions I used earlier gives a difference of 3\" of drop by having the scope mounted 2.5\" above the bore versus 1.5\". And 2.5\" is WAY up there and probably not necessary with any scope.

As for why 180\'s? I was using it as an example since I know it\'s a very popular round. Me? I would prefer the 230\'s out of my rifle! :lol:

 

[cohunter14]

Some good \"dope\" you guys are throwing out right here! Now figure in say mabe a 10-20 mph cross wind and mabe a 25-30 degree uphill/ downhill angle. There\'s a lot more to it than how much that bullet is going to drop & conditions are nearly always less than perfect. At least for me. The last bull I killed with a rifle was at a ranged 445 yards with my 270 & 140 gr boat tails . I still am extremely proud of that one.

Great points Dave! Same conditions as above, I plugged in 10mph of wind and at 400 yards, you get over a foot of wind drift! Make it 20mph and now your are talking two feet. That is very significant!

That 445 shot is fantastic with a 270! :upthumb:

 

[WW]

Some good \"dope\" you guys are throwing out right here! Now figure in say mabe a 10-20 mph cross wind and mabe a 25-30 degree uphill/ downhill angle. There\'s a lot more to it than how much that bullet is going to drop & conditions are nearly always less than perfect. At least for me. The last bull I killed with a rifle was at a ranged 445 yards with my 270 & 140 gr boat tails . I still am extremely proud of that one.

Dave brings up a great point about the angle of the shot. So here are the horizontal yardages for a 400 yard shot for the angles suggested by Dave.

For a 400 yd. shot at an angle of 25 degrees, you need to hold for 350 yds. as this would be the actual horizontal distance to the target. And for 30 degrees angle your hold would be for 330 yards. And for an extreme angle of 45 degrees, you would hold for 260 yards.

This information is from an old cut chart and I have no idea who published it. But it is a geometric comparison of base distances vs. angles.

 

[cohunter14]

Some good \"dope\" you guys are throwing out right here! Now figure in say mabe a 10-20 mph cross wind and mabe a 25-30 degree uphill/ downhill angle. There\'s a lot more to it than how much that bullet is going to drop & conditions are nearly always less than perfect. At least for me. The last bull I killed with a rifle was at a ranged 445 yards with my 270 & 140 gr boat tails . I still am extremely proud of that one.

Dave brings up a great point about the angle of the shot. So here are the horizontal yardages for a 400 yard shot for the angles suggested by Dave.

For a 400 yd. shot at an angle of 25 degrees, you need to hold for 350 yds. as this would be the actual horizontal distance to the target. And for 30 degrees angle your hold would be for 330 yards. And for an extreme angle of 45 degrees, you would hold for 260 yards.

This information is from an old cut chart and I have no idea who published it. But it is a geometric comparison of base distances vs. angles.

Yes, great points guys! I missed that comment by Dave. I have this on all of my ballistic charts for quick reference. The degree of angle is on the left and the cosine amount that you multiply the yardage by is on the right:

ANGLE COS
10 deg 0.985
15 0.966
20 0.94
25 0.906
30 0.866
35 0.819
40 0.766
45 0.707
50 0.643
55 0.574
60 0.5

 

[cohunter14]

If you don\'t have a rangefinder that will give you the angle, here is a great video on how to estimate that:

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ft_FYY3En2U[/youtube]

 

[elky McElkerson]

i think the 400 yard shot is a billion times more difficult. 400 is far for me. i did however just buy a bunch of 257 weatherby magnum ammo. i aim (pun!) to change all of this. in the gun world, i\'m kinda old school. i remember sighting in 2\" high at 100 yards and getting me into the kill zone at 300. at 400, i imagine i would need to aim a smidge high. if i get back into rifles, i am sending my Leupold in for some tactical turrets.

25 yards bow shot? low-hanging fruit for me

 

[Ol' Arky]

For me the 25 yard bow shot would be the easy one.... Even without shooting my bow with any regularity I could make a 25 yard shot on either deer or elk... I also shoot a rifle but to make a 400 yard shot takes lots and lots of practice and getting to know your rifle and how it react to the things you do with it... When rifle hunting elk I had my 300 Win Mag sighted in 3\" high at 100 yards... even with my \"special elk reload\" I had to aim a bit over the elk to get the 180 gr bullet in the kill zone... This \"special elk load\" was pushing those 180 gr Swift Scirocco bullets at a tad over 3200 FPS on my cronograph...

I remember the range I used to shoot at in Colorado near Del Norte had a 500 meter 24\" metal disc \"gong\" that I enjoyed trying to ring from time to time... I got to where I could ring it regularly after a few years... But it took a lot of time to get there...

So for me to shoot a deer or elk at 400 yards would be very hard now since I haven\'t shot that rifle in several years...