"Herd bull"

[iccyman001]

Do people put the HERD BULL on the pedestal too much?

It the term HERD BULL something coined to stroke people\'s ego?


In my limited experience I have noticed that the herd bull is not always the biggest bull or even the alpha bull.
This is also what I have read and seen in other experiences.

This year I saw a herd a few hours before I shot my bull. The herd bull was a good 5x5, but then I killed a better 6x6 that was solo.
Am I less of a hunter because of that?


So why do people make sure to highlight they killed a herd bull?





What are your thoughts on this?

 

[cohunter14]

I think the highlight of killing a \'herd bull\' is the fact that you have to drop him with a herd of cows around. That\'s a lot of eyes! But as you said, bigger bulls can be satellites, especially if the mating hasn\'t started. I have heard that smaller bulls will round up cows ahead of them going into estrus only to have larger bulls sit around and wait until they do and then come and take over.

 

[otcWill]

If I refer to a bull as a herd bull, I\'m usually talking about a bull that is a \"top end\" bull for the area and will eventually take the herd from a lesser bull. In the early parts of the season lil scrapper bulls will be running around with 20 or more cows, bugling and generally acting tough. I wouldn\'t call that bull a herd bull. He just thinks he is. In your scenario, Dan, sounds like the lil 5x was one of those. He was eventually going to lose the herd to somebody bigger. I guess mature bulls are often referred to as herd bulls. I personally don\'t care if a bull has a herd or is a wimp as long as he is a good bull for the area I\'m hunting. This might be one of those terms with too much implied or assumed, similar to the \"estrous buzz\", which could make a home on Swede\'s Bologna thread

 

[Swede]

Dan, you ask a difficult question. I agree with what those above have said about this, but I think you are focusing on our love of the biggest trophy. It is an attitude. I think there is a difference between putting the \"herd bull\" on a pedestal, and thinking it is always the largest antlered animal. The size of the antlers can be scored. It is measurable. I have no argument with those that want a 350 bull or better. I don\'t care if you are satisfied with a cow. That is good too.
Considering our attitude, ranking participants on the forum by numbers of posts, from calf to herd bull, always seems poor at best. No one wants to be a calf, and no guy wants to be seen as a cow. Only the herd bull is seen as a trophy, yet it is meaningless here. Maybe I\'m one of those that is too concerned about being politically correct, on this kind of thing.

 

[WW]

If I refer to a bull as a herd bull, I\'m usually talking about a bull that is a \"top end\" bull for the area and will eventually take the herd from a lesser bull. In the early parts of the season lil scrapper bulls will be running around with 20 or more cows, bugling and generally acting tough. I wouldn\'t call that bull a herd bull. He just thinks he is. In your scenario, Dan, sounds like the lil 5x was one of those. He was eventually going to lose the herd to somebody bigger. I guess mature bulls are often referred to as herd bulls. I personally don\'t care if a bull has a herd or is a wimp as long as he is a good bull for the area I\'m hunting. This might be one of those terms with too much implied or assumed, similar to the \"estrous buzz\", which could make a home on Swede\'s Bologna thread

Right on Will! You hit the nail on the head. About the only thing I can add is that the real boss of the herd is the lead cow.

 

[Tdiesel]

well Dan I hate to break it to you but yes you are less of a hunter for not killing the Herd bull. :lol: I think too many people go around calling any bull with cows a herd bull. which I guess by definition they are correct. Personally I call a mature bull Herd bull status, here in CO I can show the smallest four point you\'ve ever seen and he can have 5 cows. If I say ya I killed the herd bull you think dang he kills a herd bull every year must be a great hunter in reality im still only fooling a 2 1/2 yr old bull. It is an entirely different ball game to kill a 6+ yr old bull who has lived through all those seasons.

 

[iccyman001]

Great descriptions and informative posts guys!!!!!
I\'m glad to see we are all like minded regarding this.
I too refer to a herd bull as a mature bull.

I\'ve seen it a few times on forums and have spoken with people too who think because they killed the bull with that cows at that time, that they killed the biggest and badest bull.

There is certainly no discredit to them because like Derek mentioned, they had to battle more eyes and that is a great feat.

I was just very interested in other peoples thought on what the herd bull was.



Swede, I too find it meaningless. Someone telling me they killed a herd bull gets me no more excited than someone telling me they killed a bull. As long as they are happy then I am happy.


Will, I\'m using you as an example and I hope you don\'t mind.
Will is a slayer of all animals. When he kills a nice bull, buck, or bear he says it just like that. \"I killed a bull, buck or bear.\"
Will COULD say I killed a pope and young herd bull, pope and young buck or bear, but he doesn\'t. He\'s happy with his kill and doesn\'t need his ego stroked.


So that is why I asked is this was a coined term that was glorified with TV and forums as an ego stroking phrase.




Please know that is not directed at anyone on this site.

 

[cnelk]

We should be cautious in referencing a \'Herd Bull\'
A herd bull is a \'Mature Bull\', nothing more.

A mature/herd bull can have 2-3 cows or 20+ cows, or no cows.

Any given time during the month of September a mature bull can be a herd bull.
Sometimes he can be a herd bull, but he is ALWAYS a mature bull.

We as hunters have indeed put the \'mature bull\' into \'herd bull\' status.

 

[cnelk]

Is this a \'Herd Bull\'?
How do you know?
Maybe it depends on the unit you are hunting?

 

[Swede]

Several years ago I killed a 4X4 herd bull. It was September 26th. He had four cows with him, and he was mudded up from a wallow, and doing his thing. A lot has to do with how many bulls live through the hunting seasons. If the big ones are mostly killed off, then lesser bulls take over.

 

[cohunter14]

One other thing to keep in mind about herd bulls is that the one with the largest rack doesn\'t always win the fight. Therefore, a satellite could actually have a larger rack than the herd bull.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

We should be cautious in referencing a \'Herd Bull\'
A herd bull is a \'Mature Bull\', nothing more.

A mature/herd bull can have 2-3 cows or 20+ cows, or no cows.

Any given time during the month of September a mature bull can be a herd bull.
Sometimes he can be a herd bull, but he is ALWAYS a mature bull.

We as hunters have indeed put the \'mature bull\' into \'herd bull\' status.

x2

When a bull has a harem, he\'s considered a herd bull. Size has nothing to do with it.

Just my 2-cents and worth nothing more!

JF

 

[Guest]

Several years ago I killed a 4X4 herd bull. It was September 26th. He had four cows with him, and he was mudded up from a wallow, and doing his thing. A lot has to do with how many bulls live through the hunting seasons. If the big ones are mostly killed off, then lesser bulls take over.

I am with Swede on this one !!

I\'ve spent 2 years hunting a growly old heard bull only to find out when I called him into 5 yards the second year he was a 4X4 and I passed on him in utter disbelief !!

You saw a picture I sent you Daniel earlier this year.......he is still there !!

 

[bowhunter]

About the only thing I can add is that the real boss of the herd is the lead cow.

One for the Archives............ :!:

 

[WW]

The post Swede made about the 4x4 he thought was a herd bull got me to thinking about something I should have said before.

First of all, a 4x4 is usually a two year old and still a baby in the elk world. If you ever see one by himself, he is either lost or he has already been kicked out of the herd. Usually he isn\'t old enough to hold his own with the older guys and afraid to leave his mommy. That is the main reason he is still in the herd. A lead cow would have to be pretty desperate and hard up to allow a little guy like that to breed anyone in her herd. Remember, this old lead cow has had control of the herd for the entire year. And she isn\'t about to give that up to some little pip squeak 4x4 teeny bopper. Trust me, as soon as a real bull shows up that little guy will be gone. Although I have seen instances where a big bull will allow youngsters to remain in the herd, probably because they are of no threat.

In closing, just remember, there is a heck of a lot of difference between a herd bull and a bull that is in the herd!!

 

[Swede]

WW, the 4X4 was not a typical rag horn. He should have been a satellite. I would guess him to be a 4 year old. What I and others have noticed is that there are not enough big bulls to do all of the breeding. Too many are getting shot. That just tells me the herds are not healthy.
Here is something else several of us have seen in that area, and I don\'t think any of us fully understand. We can view a single herd of 100+ cows with 5 or 6 bulls. They are all together in late September, on the ranch I write about. I assume they don\'t break up, so they can stay on the ranch refuge. I believe the elk have adapted rather quickly to the hunting pressure. Those same elk come off the ranch in the rifle season. Many are shot and enjoy the winter in someone\'s freezer.