Nervous Grunt and Alarm Bark - Are they really different?

[JohnFitzgerald]

I\'ve heard both out hunting but are they really different? I use to think so but after many blurry explaninations I\'ve come to think that what we are actually dealing with is an escalation level of alert.

The escalation range starts from a single grunt/bark and runs all the way to the opposite end of many grunts/barks.

If you are sitting on your couch and smell smoke, you might ask \"Fire?\" The wife may reply, \"Sorry I just burnt dinner.\" And there\'s no escalation in the situation. But if you get no response you might escalate your concern by becoming more vocal and repetative. Then when you see flames coming out of the kitchen, the escalation might be raised to \"Fire Fire Fire Fire\". ( sorry for the bad analogy)

To me elk only use the one sound(Alerted Grunt/Bark). How often it\'s given is the actually meaning applied to the situation.

What does everyone else think?

jf

 

[WW]

John, you are pretty much on the right track. I don\'t know how elk hear these sounds but to me they sound very close to the same. From my experience, they are both barks, not grunts. The nervous bark is usually given only once and it will stop an elk in its tracks every time. Where as the alarm bark my be repeated several times.

Some people seem to think the alarm bark is courser or deeper sounding. I have never bought into that theory! Elk are no different than people, dogs, and other critters. We all have different sounding voices. There are tenors and there are baratones in ever species.

 

[elkmtngear]

To me elk only use the one sound(Alerted Grunt/Bark). How often it\'s given is the actually meaning applied to the situation.

What does everyone else think?

jf

I think you and Bill are correct, Sirs! :mrgreen:

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Thanks guys! I\'m glad I\'m not the only one thinking this route on barks.

 

[Swede]

From the few experiences I have had with the barks, I can detect no difference. With the alarm bark I also hear the rapid beating of hooves as they leave the area. I think on videos is the only place I have heard the repeated barks. WW is correct that they are both barks and not grunts. Probably WW can say where the term grunt came from, but to me it does not fit.

 

[WW]

Popping (BARK)! LOL!

 

[BTL]

I have heard of people that will like to use a type of grunt, or popping grunt, in with their bugles. It has been described as asking the elk to show himself. I am not sure this is the same thing but to me it sounds the same. Would would bark mean in with a series of bugles if it is asking about danger?

 

[Tdiesel]

I agree they sound same to me. I liken it more to us humans saying HEY! say you and your buddy are walking in the most griz infested woods without protection the guy in front yells HEY! you\' will likely freeze and try to figure out whats up just as an elk freezes. Now if your buddy hells HEY HEY HEY as turning to run you will most likley run too even if you don\'t see whats going on! Shoot it doesn\'t even have to be someone you know if a stranger in the parking lot yells HEY! don\'t all of us look. Swede I have never heard the repeat bark either its usually just one and the herd takes off. again most the time if someone in your family yelled hey and took off wouldn\'t you.

 

[Swede]

Tod, I think your HEY! analogy is good. If my buddy says HEY! and starts running away, I will be close behind. He doesn\'t need to explain. I believe the elk are the same. I have noticed that one elk, that takes off running, will stampede the whole herd even if there are no other sounds than hoof beats.

 

[elkmtngear]

Swede I have never heard the repeat bark either its usually just one and the herd takes off.

I heard it last Season, and I earned it, LOL ! I moved at the wrong time in an evening ambush, and didn\'t notice a herd across a big open south face about 250 yards away. They busted me big time!

The \"resident bitch\" lead cow stood there looking at me, barking multiple times, as the herd bugged out behind her!

 

[Tdiesel]

Tod, I think your HEY! analogy is good. If my buddy says HEY! and starts running away, I will be close behind. He doesn\'t need to explain. I believe the elk are the same. I have noticed that one elk, that takes off running, will stampede the whole herd even if there are no other sounds than hoof beats.

yep I think most of the elk in the herd slow down after a while then ask what are we running from? 90% of the animals don\'t know what kind of danger there was only one or two usually.

 

[mtnmutt]

My 3 experiences.

1st & 2nd experiences
Walking in during dark before legal shooting. 3-4 barks 20-40 yards away. Likely cows. If memory serves me correctly, slightly higher pitch than the spike\'s sound mentioned below.

Last year, 20 yard spike encounter. Illegal to shoot a spike, so we just had a staring contest. When I moved slightly, he trotted off. At about 50 yards, he issued one bark, paused 3-5 seconds and issued a second bark. 5 minutes later, I did a single light cow mew and he responded from 100-150 yards away with a bugle.

In all 3 encounters, I had a severe hearing loss, so they have to be close for me to hear the sound.

The cow bark was different than the spike bark. The spike bark was slightly lower in pitch. The experiences were 5 years apart, so my memory may fail me on this comparison.

So, do we call the cow sound Alarm Barks and the Bull\'s Nervous Grunt? They vary a little bit in pitch & tone. The intensity appears to be the same.

 

[elkmtngear]

So, do we call the cow sound Alarm Barks and the Bull\'s Nervous Grunt? They vary a little bit in pitch & tone. The intensity appears to be the same.

Well, I guess you could call it what you like, but bull or cow, it sounds like a \"bark\" to me. Not sure where the term \"grunt\" comes from in regard to this alarm tone. The first time I heard it, I had no idea elk could make a sound like that. And my first thought was \"that elk barked at me\"!

As you said, they may slightly vary in pitch/ tone, but there is no mistaking it when you hear it!

 

[Swede]

So, do we call the cow sound Alarm Barks and the Bull\'s Nervous Grunt? They vary a little bit in pitch & tone. The intensity appears to be the same.

I don\'t know for sure. I would not think it would matter. The difference you describe is interesting as I have not noticed it. There is a long time between experiences like that for me and the changed conditions make a comparison impossible for me. Of coarse I am rather tone deaf. You don\'t want me in your church choir, unless you just need another pretty face . lol

 

[cnelk]

Here is my take...

Are the nervous grunt and the alarm bark really different?

I DONT CARE IF THEY ARE OR NOT.

Of all of the elk sounds I know and really care about, these two sounds are at the bottom of the list.
Have I heard the dreaded alarm bark? Of course.
And I heard the same running hoof sounds shortly after most people do.

If you go thru a whole season and dont hear these two sounds you are doing a good job.

I dont speak a foreign language. And I sorta kinda speak \'elk\' for a couple weeks each year.
If I travel to Italy, and go see an opera, I dont need to know the words to enjoy the show.
I can tell the opera singers are telling a story and it is very graceful.

But once the show is over and Im walking down the street in Florence, and someone yells something Loud and Short.
And people start running, Im probably gonna follow them.

And remember, I dont speak Italian

 

[Swede]

Brad, with a name like Knutson, I am surprised you don\'t speak Italian. lol

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

I think using \"grunt\" in reference to these type of sounds is what causes hunters so much confusion. It\'s a bark, plain and simple. Troy(GCHC) talks about tone, intensity, and pitch as a great indicator to the meaning. Me, I like to add one more and that\'s repetition.

I kinda feel the same about challenge grunts vs. chuckles. When applying Troy\'s philosophy, aren\'t challenge grunts really just chuckles with a spin on tone, intensity, and pitch? Might just be me but seems that the term grunt just confuses the situation.

Brad - I see your point. But for me when an elk gives a single bark, there\'s still hope. However, when they give multiple barks, it\'s usually game over.

So I guess my point to this thread was to help hunters realize that when an elk gets alerted and gives a verbal signal, don\'t think \"Now was that a nervous grunt or an alarm bark?\" Instead the hunter needs to think, \"This elk is alerted, I need to do something to address it.\"

My 2-cents!

jf

 

[Deertick]

I think using \"grunt\" in reference to these type of sounds is what causes hunters so much confusion. It\'s a bark, plain and simple.

jf

This seems to make good sense to me.

 

[Glacier Country]

John, you are pretty much on the right track. I don\'t know how elk hear these sounds but to me they sound very close to the same. From my experience, they are both barks, not grunts. The nervous bark is usually given only once and it will stop an elk in its tracks every time. Where as the alarm bark my be repeated several times.

Some people seem to think the alarm bark is courser or deeper sounding. I have never bought into that theory! Elk are no different than people, dogs, and other critters. We all have different sounding voices. There are tenors and there are baratones in ever species.

I do believe that Tone Intensity and Pitch do apply here. I use this sound in conjunction with a bugle, I try to use it with a mid tone and not quite as much high pitch as a bark,(At least the Bark I mimic). I do vary the intensity to meet the situation. So I guess I would say I try to do a sound in between a grunt and a Bark. I do believe it is a variation of a Bark though because a true grunt is a type of warning, where this sound is asking another elk to come to where it can be seen, or in combination with a bugle,Daring it to come over. At least that is what I think. Years ago I had a herd bull do this to me and I realized he wanted to see me. So now I just do it to them. I ask other bulls to come to me.
I put a sound clip of me bugling in my wife\'s bull last fall and I did this sound ( mid tone bark) and raked a tree,to bring that bull right in, during rifle season. Deadly combo!!

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So what does everyone think about challenge grunts? Chuckles are an attraction for cows. But aren\'t challenge grunts really just chuckles with elevated intensity? Sorry, but I follow the Occam\'s Razor Theory. Paraphrased, \"When all things are equal the simplest answer is correct\". It\'s hard for me to believe that is so complicated that Challenge Grunts are for warning bulls and Chuckles are attracting cows by showing worthiness. The complexity of what sound the bull gives is what the receiving elk is suppose to interpret? Seems really complicated.

Or

Are they all chuckles, directed at only cows, and intensity determines \"asking\" or \"demanding\"?

Once again, bad analogy. \"Ladies, I\'m here and I am worthy\" vs. \"Ladies, I\'m the worthiest bull here so some come here now.\"

It makes sense that by introducing a second bull, hunters can easily theorize that \"Challenge Grunts\" are directed at the other bull.

Sorry, I don\'t mean to stir the pot but many unanswered questions has lead me to believe that when all things are equal, the simplest answer is correct.

Thoughts?

jf