Nervous Grunt and Alarm Bark - Are they really different?

[elkmtngear]

So what does everyone think about challenge grunts? Chuckles are an attraction for cows. But aren\'t challenge grunts really just chuckles with elevated intensity? Sorry, but I follow the Occam\'s Razor Theory. Paraphrased, \"When all things are equal the simplest answer is correct\". It\'s hard for me to believe that is so complicated that Challenge Grunts are for warning bulls and Chuckles are attracting cows by showing worthiness. The complexity of what sound the bull gives is what the receiving elk is suppose to interpret? Seems really complicated.

Or

Are they all chuckles, directed at only cows, and intensity determines \"asking\" or \"demanding\"?

Once again, bad analogy. \"Ladies, I\'m here and I am worthy\" vs. \"Ladies, I\'m the worthiest bull here so some come here now.\"

It makes sense that by introducing a second bull, hunters can easily theorize that \"Challenge Grunts\" are directed at the other bull.

Sorry, I don\'t mean to stir the pot but many unanswered questions has lead me to believe that when all things are equal, the simplest answer is correct.

Thoughts?

jf

Not to complicate it too much...but what if it\'s both? If the bull gives the challenger an aggressive scream, and throws a couple of \"challenge grunts\" on the end of it...maybe he\'s telling the other bull \"I\'m opening a can of whup ass on you\" with the scream, and then telling the ladies \"stay with me here girls\" on the end of the phrase with the grunts (which sound very close to \"chuckles\" to me as well)???? :think:

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So what does everyone think about challenge grunts? Chuckles are an attraction for cows. But aren\'t challenge grunts really just chuckles with elevated intensity? Sorry, but I follow the Occam\'s Razor Theory. Paraphrased, \"When all things are equal the simplest answer is correct\". It\'s hard for me to believe that is so complicated that Challenge Grunts are for warning bulls and Chuckles are attracting cows by showing worthiness. The complexity of what sound the bull gives is what the receiving elk is suppose to interpret? Seems really complicated.

Or

Are they all chuckles, directed at only cows, and intensity determines \"asking\" or \"demanding\"?

Once again, bad analogy. \"Ladies, I\'m here and I am worthy\" vs. \"Ladies, I\'m the worthiest bull here so some come here now.\"

It makes sense that by introducing a second bull, hunters can easily theorize that \"Challenge Grunts\" are directed at the other bull.

Sorry, I don\'t mean to stir the pot but many unanswered questions has lead me to believe that when all things are equal, the simplest answer is correct.

Thoughts?

jf

Not to complicate it too much...but what if it\'s both? If the bull gives the challenger an aggressive scream, and throws a couple of \"challenge grunts\" on the end of it...maybe he\'s telling the other bull \"I\'m opening a can of whup ass on you\" with the scream, and then telling the ladies \"stay with me here girls\" on the end of the phrase with the grunts (which sound very close to \"chuckles\" to me as well)???? :think:

Jeff, that to me seems like the simplest answer.

So just like with barks, are we really talking about \"passive chuckles\" on one end of intensity scale and \"aggressive chuckles\" on the other end?

I\'ve heard hunters talk about how they\'ve heard it out in the woods and they sat there trying to determine if it was chuckles or challenge grunts. Complicating things seems like it can cause a lot of missed opportunities.

 

[elkmtngear]

So what does everyone think about challenge grunts? Chuckles are an attraction for cows. But aren\'t challenge grunts really just chuckles with elevated intensity? Sorry, but I follow the Occam\'s Razor Theory. Paraphrased, \"When all things are equal the simplest answer is correct\". It\'s hard for me to believe that is so complicated that Challenge Grunts are for warning bulls and Chuckles are attracting cows by showing worthiness. The complexity of what sound the bull gives is what the receiving elk is suppose to interpret? Seems really complicated.

Or

Are they all chuckles, directed at only cows, and intensity determines \"asking\" or \"demanding\"?

Once again, bad analogy. \"Ladies, I\'m here and I am worthy\" vs. \"Ladies, I\'m the worthiest bull here so some come here now.\"

It makes sense that by introducing a second bull, hunters can easily theorize that \"Challenge Grunts\" are directed at the other bull.

Sorry, I don\'t mean to stir the pot but many unanswered questions has lead me to believe that when all things are equal, the simplest answer is correct.

Thoughts?

jf

Not to complicate it too much...but what if it\'s both? If the bull gives the challenger an aggressive scream, and throws a couple of \"challenge grunts\" on the end of it...maybe he\'s telling the other bull \"I\'m opening a can of whup ass on you\" with the scream, and then telling the ladies \"stay with me here girls\" on the end of the phrase with the grunts (which sound very close to \"chuckles\" to me as well)???? :think:

Jeff, that to me seems like the simplest answer.

So just like with barks, are we really talking about \"passive chuckles\" on one end of intensity scale and \"aggressive chuckles\" on the other end?

I\'ve heard hunters talk about how they\'ve heard it out in the woods and they sat there trying to determine if it was chuckles or challenge grunts. Complicating things seems like it can cause a lot of missed opportunities.

I agree, it seems like more of the variations have to do with intensity/ emotion, and there\'s no reason to differentiate. If a bull\'s being challenged, he\'s multitasking here; trying to keep his herd together and keep rivals out at the same time. It stands to reason that his \"chuckles\" would be a little more intense!

 

[Tdiesel]

+1

I have seriously questioned if it has anything to do with warning another bull or if its just \"flexing muscles\". Take a guy at the pool who is there to impress the ladies if no other guy is around he really doesn\'t have to show off that much he\'s probably got the ladies attention but then say another guy comes around the pool the original guy will most likely puff out his chest and flex those muscles as he comes out of the water trying to show the ladies that he is the one they want to be with.

if you call with only a cow call the bull chuckles (showing off a little) if you bugle(introduce another male) and he comes back with those hard grunts/chuckles could it be that he is just showing off A LOT for the ladies around saying he is the one they want to be with??? almost like flexing his muscles it may also work in a deterent that way cause I wouldn\'t go try to steal ladies from some guy that looks like he could bench press me!

 

[Glacier Country]

elkmtngear wrote (Not to complicate it too much...but what if it\'s both? If the bull gives the challenger an aggressive scream, and throws a couple of \"challenge grunts\" on the end of it...maybe he\'s telling the other bull \"I\'m opening a can of whup ass on you\" with the scream, and then telling the ladies \"stay with me here girls\" on the end of the phrase with the grunts (which sound very close to \"chuckles\" to me as well)???? )

JohnFitzgerald wrote (I agree, it seems like more of the variations have to do with intensity/ emotion, and there\'s no reason to differentiate. If a bull\'s being challenged, he\'s multitasking here; trying to keep his herd together and keep rivals out at the same time. It stands to reason that his \"chuckles\" would be a little more intense!

Yep, John and I have talked about this before. Jeff (elkmtngear) just hit the nail on the head IMO!
It is all about Tone ,Intensity and Pitch. Yes with his aggressive bugles and a aggressive chuckles or grunts he is actually multitasking. Both the other bull and the cows know what he means, by his Tone ,intensity, and Pitch!
Maybe I don\'t know exactly what he just said, Maybe I do ... Either way... I know what Tone intensity and pitch I need to give back to him to get him to REACT!

 

[WW]

Lets use the K.I.S.S. method so we don\'t confuse everyone. I\'d sure hate to be a new hunter and try to figure out what everyone is talking about here.

So usually, not 100% of the time, but usually when a bull chuckles, he is talking to cows. And when he grunts, he is usually talking to other bulls. Simple as that! You can add your two cents worth if you want but that is basically it!

 

[elkmtngear]

Lets use the K.I.S.S. method so we don\'t confuse everyone. I\'d sure hate to be a new hunter and try to figure out what everyone is talking about here.

So usually, not 100% of the time, but usually when a bull chuckles, he is talking to cows. And when he grunts, he is usually talking to other bulls. Simple as that! You can add your two cents worth if you want but that is basically it!

...(slapping my forehead)! :wtf:

I guess it doesn\'t matter WHO he is talking to...as long as you know how to react to it.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

elkmtngear wrote (Not to complicate it too much...but what if it\'s both? If the bull gives the challenger an aggressive scream, and throws a couple of \"challenge grunts\" on the end of it...maybe he\'s telling the other bull \"I\'m opening a can of whup ass on you\" with the scream, and then telling the ladies \"stay with me here girls\" on the end of the phrase with the grunts (which sound very close to \"chuckles\" to me as well)???? )

JohnFitzgerald wrote (I agree, it seems like more of the variations have to do with intensity/ emotion, and there\'s no reason to differentiate. If a bull\'s being challenged, he\'s multitasking here; trying to keep his herd together and keep rivals out at the same time. It stands to reason that his \"chuckles\" would be a little more intense!

Yep, John and I have talked about this before. Jeff (elkmtngear) just hit the nail on the head IMO!
It is all about Tone ,Intensity and Pitch. Yes with his aggressive bugles and a aggressive chuckles or grunts he is actually multitasking. Both the other bull and the cows know what he means, by his Tone ,intensity, and Pitch!
Maybe I don\'t know exactly what he just said, Maybe I do ... Either way... I know what Tone intensity and pitch I need to give back to him to get him to REACT!

So I guess the lesson and the goal of my thread was for hunters to stop complicating the situation. Don\'t try and figure out if it was a Nervous Grunt, Alarm Bark, Chuckles, or Challenge Grunts. STOP THINKING!!!!! Feeling the intensity will give you the biggest clue to what the bulls is trying to project. From there you\'ll know what to do!

But what about tone and pitch? Maybe well ask in a later thread.