questions for Jaquomo and others

[mainebrdr]

In a recent thread entitled \"What to expect on DIY OTC Elk hunt\", Lou gave some answers that gave me more questions. Perhaps he and others could help me on this.

1. \"You\'ll find elk if you have security cover, forage and water\". What are we talking about in the way of forage here. What besides meadows of varying sizes? Elk are grazers unlike deer who are browsers.

2. \" As soon as I find fresh sign I stop, look at my map, look at the terrain, figure out why that sign is there and whether its likely morning sign or evening sign\". Why that sign is there? It seems like the answers to that could almost be unlimited. Conditions surely narrow it down some?
Morning or evening? Probably location in relation to the bedding and feeding areas? How does one determine this?



3. \"Long points for travel corridors\". I know that saddles are used for travel but please explain \'long points\'.

And Lou, please, no need to apologize for anything \'long winded\'! To be honest about it, finding answers to questions like this is what led me here in the first place!

 

[Jaquomo]

Ok, I\'ll start with 1 and let others chime in. This should be a looooong thread with all the variables you\'ve raised. Usually the open south-facing meadow grass they like now in summer has turned brown and/or gone to seed in September. Frost also reduces nutritional value in that grass. So they tend to prefer the leafy forbs and greener grass in the shaded transition zones - ie.. beneath aspens, loose pines and spruces, and just inside the timber along meadow edges, especially wet meadows.

Where I hunt now the elk have almost totally moved off open parks (\"meadows\" or fields to you easterners.. ) by early September and are feeding along the timber edges or down in willow bottoms at night where green grass has been preserved in the shade and by the additional moisture.

Fairly recent clearcuts in aspen zones have new-growth aspen shoots that are absolute elk magnets. Same with recent burns. They\'ll cover a lot of ground to feed on them.

But a lot of the timber is old-growth, meaning it offers bedding cover, but even the chipmunks carry sack lunches. There\'s simply no forage in there that appeals to elk. I see guys hunting these places every year, not understanding that just because it\'s \"thick timber\" doesn\'t mean elk will live there. It\'s a huge, virtual wildlife desert.

The meadow observations vary with the amount of moisture in the soil, temperature in late summer, precipitation in late summer (the infamous \"monsoons\", etc.. At high elevations I still find them using the open parks more than the lower elevations, but mostly at very last light and maybe still at very first light. But public land elk don\'t like wide open parks much except after dark, so they feel more secure feeding in the
transition cover.

This is N. CO perspective, so I\'m sure guys like Swede, JF, Will and others will have a different take based upon different geography and climate.

Hope this helps more than confuses!

 

[Deertick]

Real interesting stuff about summer grass and autumn grass there, Lou.

I hadn\'t thought of that before, and my first impression is that this could be a real important concept. I see elk in high country parks in the summer, but you\'re right ... in September, the grass there is starting to turn a little brown. The first frost or so starts the process. The grass in the ditches, draws, and drainages, though, remains green.

Hmmm.

The concept of old-growth forest as sterile is something I have tested time and again (because I just couldn\'t believe it. I believe it now. :crazy:

Smaller parks, protected grazing areas, and escape cover ... that is where I find them, I guess.

Cnelk likes to compare elk hunting to chess. I feel like I\'m starting to learn one of the opponent\'s moves.

Anyone up for discussing the other 2 questions?

 

[cnelk]

When the grass starts to dry out in the fall, that when you will see the difference in elk poo.
When they eat the green moisture rich grass, the poop will be loose and in piles, like a small cow pie.
As the grass dries out, the poop will then start to pelletize.

So, when you see the piles, it\'s prob summer/green grass feed.
Pellets will be fall/ winter

 

[cnelk]

If you have ever tracked elk in the snow, you will see elk will pee when they get up and move from their bed.
And you can usually smell the pee, and them.

Taking that info to when there is no snow, the same happens.
You may not see beds in the timber, but you can smell them and see pee spots.
That\'s when I think \'bedding area\'.

 

[cnelk]

+100. On Lou\'s mentioning clear cuts.
Elk will travel just on the sides of them, making their way into them where the terrain gives then the advantage.

I too stay stay away from large openings. If there are some in the vicinity, I will use them to my advantage, by skirting the edges, getting into position.

 

[Jaquomo]

I have a couple Board meetings today but will get back on questions 2 and 3 later, though some others will probably have addressed them by then. Lots of knowledge on this site.

 

[iccyman001]

So, we are always talking about selling calling when you are doing it. Make them believe you are an elk.

So now let me play a scenario.

It\'s mid Sept and you are set up on one of those south facing slopes of grass that they no longer use.
You start your calling sequence.......

Do you think something inside of the elk goes..... \"Hey why is there an elk down there calling, we shouldn\'t be down there.\"
Or do you think the calls themselves will overpower that thought.

I know we can\'t know exactly what think, but it almost seems that if I need to sell something, I need to be in the right area too and not just call anywhere.

To me it\'s sounds like if I wanted to call something in, I should avoid these grassy areas that they no longer hit. :dk:

 

[Swede]

But a lot of the timber is old-growth, meaning it offers bedding cover, but even the chipmunks carry sack lunches. There\'s simply no forage in there that appeals to elk. I see guys hunting these places every year, not understanding that just because it\'s \"thick timber\" doesn\'t mean elk will live there. It\'s a huge, virtual wildlife desert.

I too want to discuss the feed part first. Lou is right on about old-growth. Elk will go in there to escape weather or hunters, but they don\'t live there. The best way I can describe Lou\'s general point is to say, look at areas with a lot of edges, where there are timber stands and open meadows/parks in close proximity. Huge open areas don\'t have the elk either that interspersed open and tree covered places have.

I have found the same elk feeding traits in Oregon that Lou has pointed out in regards to feed in Colorado. One exception is what I call Pine grass. That may or may not be the real name. It covers wide areas under a tree canopy. Anyway I have found elk paunches loaded with the stuff after the first frost. Apparently it is more palatable after the frost, or that is what they have to feed on after the cattle have taken all the good stuff.

When you get an elk pay attention to what is in their stomach. Also you can see what they are eating by just observing them. Remember elk spend 90% of their time feeding or bedding. If they are up and undisturbed, they are eating something. What is it?

 

[Swede]

Dan, the elk don\'t think. Call in areas where elk are, from locations, that are a good setup to ambush them, when they are close. If there is no feed or forage on a south slope, there will be only elk that are in transition there. Internet forum hunters have emphasized north slopes to the exclusion of all others way too much. I do not know how that ever got started. North slopes may or may not be a little better in many areas. They certainly are not the only place to find the wapiti. Elk do prefer cool places in the summer and early fall. There are niches on all mountain aspects that are cooler than others. If cool was all there was to elk needs, then we should stay in the creek bottoms and hunt there.

 

[Jaquomo]

Good points from Swede.

Elk process and react. If a bull hears compelling calling coming form a meadow, he may likely come check it out, regardless of the forage quality. But he\'ll sneak along 50 yards back in the timber, looking for elk. I try to do all of my calling setups in broken terrain where a bull must come within bow range, or within close decoy range, before he can pinpoint where I\'m calling from.

Those Primos videos where they call a big bull in across a big open park rarely happen on public land. Sometimes, but very rare. I had it happen once last year when calling for a friend, but the bull was already out feeding in the big park (green grass, early in the season, high altitude), and we knew he intended to cross it to get to the other side of the drainage. It was like a Primos video, as I was actively decoying with the Elk Mountain butt and Heads Up cow head 100 yards behind my friend. After the wind goofed him just before his shot opportunity, he came back to me, wide-eyed, and said, \"That was just like on a TV show!!\" Since it was his first season bowhunting for elk, I cautioned him that it was a rare thing, indeed.

 

[VTHOKEE]

Thanks for all this info. I have been wanting to check out a spot that has a small little grove of Aspens with a lot of green grass around it that borders up to a burn area on one side and then on the upper side of the aspens starts going into the timber that wasn\'t burned. There is also a water hole nearby that I wanted to check out. We already have a couple good spots scouted but want to add a few more. From my description does this spot sound like checking out??

 

[Jaquomo]

vthokee, that sounds like one of my hot spots, exactly! Hopefully it\'s not the same one!! :shock:

To the long point question - elk are like fish in some ways when they travel. They like structure. When traveling from one major ridge to another, or one basin to another, they like to work up the sides of long points for several reasons. Usually one side will have loose transition timber with a good forage understory, so they can graze along as they travel. Also, it\'s easier walking to work up a long, gradual ridge than to go up a steep hillside, even for elk. Think about it - if you have the option to walk up a long ridge or a steep deadfall slope, unless something has scared you, which would you choose?

Also, when you look at a long point on a topo, there are usually flatter benches, which often mean water. Or if they are north-facing, those benches are great places to bed.

If you\'re lucky enough to hunt a place where there is a very large open park with several timbered ridges coming down to it, the place where the elk emerge at last light is almost always at the end of the long, timbered points. I found one spot last year where every night elk come down a point to where it pinches in a narrow draw that holds aspens, good browse, and water. They walked right through a big (brown) grassy meadow to get to the green forage beneath the aspens. I hunted that spot the last five nights of the season, and on each of the five nights elk worked their way down and converged at that narrow pinch point. The last two nights I called solitary bulls right to it. As soon as the USFS gate opens I\'m going back in there and building a little ground blind next to a rock pile where the trails converge.

 

[cnelk]

Alan,
It could be a good spot.
But remember that they are just that. SPOTS.
Just one piece of the chess game.
Don\'t just concentrate on 1 or 2 or3 spots.
Have LOTS

 

[VTHOKEE]

Brad, we already have a few spots that we are scouting and running cams in. This is another spot I want to check out and see what kind of sign I see. You can never have to many back up plans. I feel like we are putting in the work this year and it should pay off for us with meat in the freezer.

 

[Swede]

Let me take a shot at the, why the elk were there question.
Ask yourself is this a feeding area, a bedding area or along a travel way in between? Sometimes these things intermingle, but that covers the basics. Maybe a better question would be why is elk sign concentrated here as opposed to somewhere nearby? How can I take advantage of the information I am picking up on?

 

[iccyman001]

Dan, the elk don\'t think. Call in areas where elk are, from locations, that are a good setup to ambush them, when they are close. If there is no feed or forage on a south slope, there will be only elk that are in transition there. Internet forum hunters have emphasized north slopes to the exclusion of all others way too much. I do not know how that ever got started. North slopes may or may not be a little better in many areas. They certainly are not the only place to find the wapiti. Elk do prefer cool places in the summer and early fall. There are niches on all mountain aspects that are cooler than others. If cool was all there was to elk needs, then we should stay in the creek bottoms and hunt there.

One thing I did note on all of my hiking and scouting were cooler pockets located on the mountain. I even marked them as way points on my GPS to keep track!

I try to do all of my calling setups in broken terrain where a bull must come within bow range, or within close decoy range, before he can pinpoint where I\'m calling from.
.

I\'ll stick to this then ^^^^


Thanks for the posts you two.

 

[Jaquomo]

Swede, exactly. Its the subtle clues. Which way are most of the tracks headed in that place, relative to bedding areas? Is it along trails (travel routes) or dispersed (feeding area, staging area)? Even the rubs can sometimes give hints if they seem to be on one side of the trees along a certain edge line.

Last year I came upon three MLs hunting an obvious evening feeding meadow in early morning. They missed all the obvious clues I\'d already found - two wallows on the edge, direction of tracks, the fact that the bedding area was way above them.

I let them be and didn\'t spoil their hunt. :wave:

 

[mainebrdr]

Yes, thanks for taking the time to help. As I am studying maps and making plans for unit 49 this year I can\'t help but wonder what these maps would be saying to someone with more experience and knowledge. I would rather not be the blind hog that stumbles on the acorn!

 

[Jaquomo]

IMO, the maps give you ideas on different terrain and road/trail/closed roads. Satellites give a vegetation overview with detail.

Then when you\'re on the hunt you\'ll have a much better idea of different spots to try if your primary doesn\'t have elk or others are hunting there.

I just went to Fed Ex and printed out satellite zooms of four new areas I want to scout after studying Start My Hunt maps and comparing with the DIY Hunting map of the same area. They\'re laminated and in my pack, ready to go hiking this week.