Simple Instinct Simple Creatures

[JohnFitzgerald]

We can all agree that elk have simple instinct(breed and survive). Does this make them simple creatures? Do we complicate their thoughts more than we should? Do they really show emotion? Or are they just creatures that react to instinct?

 

[Swede]

I have heard the testimonials about how my dog loves me, is loyal, and wags its tail or whines, etc. etc. Animals do not have the ability to think and reason. Animals can do incredible things. A dog may leave a desperate man, and come back with help on rare occasion. Some will stay there until they too die. Your dog knows when it should be fed and may bring its dish to you. I think it all boils down to reacting and instinct.

Elk are not simple. They are complex, but they are limited in their ability. I believe we try too hard to make elk calls too complex. and come up with strategies based on a mistaken understanding.
This I have experienced: elk sounds coming from the timber are changed due to the vegetation and terrain. The environment changes elk sounds making it appear they have more variety of language than they actually do. Different elk sound differently, making it appear they have a greater variety of calls. If you understand 6 or 7 different elk sounds, can make 3 or 4 proficiently, and have a good idea when to try each, you will do well.
That is what I think.

 

[OldMan]

Yes, to all your questions. They are very predictable once you understand them. They don\'t have free thought. They have instincts.

 

[WW]

+2 to what Stillhunter said. I like his terminology (free thought). Also what everyone here is calling instinct, is what I like to call reaction. Elk don\'t think, they react! When you learn how to make an elk react to a situation regardless of your hunting style, you will see your odds go way up.

 

[OldMan]

We\'re saying the same thing Bill. Reacting without thought is the definition of instincts.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So, elk react without thought(instinct). Then why should\'n\'t every hunter learn estrus sounds, vocalize them in the woods, and expect every bull within earshot to come running in? Anyone who\'s spent time calling knows elk rarely act this way. What are we missing?

 

[OldMan]

Do bulls react to every estrus call from cows? If that is so, then I suggest the hunters don\'t sound like cows to the bull.

 

[iccyman001]

One thing that I can see hurting callers is our \"thinking\" verse their \"instinct\".

If we are making calls that do not seem natural to them or not at natural \"instinctive times\", then we could be driving them off.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Good points Still!

I\'d guess most bulls have the instinct to breed. So maybe with some bulls or in some areas, the instinct to survive outweighs the instinct to breed. Might be a good explanation of why calling doesn\'t work well in Swedes area but does in mine.

And possibly the old school philosophy of \"sounding similar\" to elk is really outdated. Maybe quality of calling might just give an extra bump to the breeding instinct while soothing the instinct to survive.

 

[WW]

So, elk react without thought(instinct). Then why should\'n\'t every hunter learn estrus sounds, vocalize them in the woods, and expect every bull within earshot to come running in? Anyone who\'s spent time calling knows elk rarely act this way. What are we missing?

The problem could be that TOO MANY hunters DO use hyper hot or estrus buzz sounds. I recall back in the 80\'s I was about the only hunter in these parts that had stumbled onto these sounds. I called in, to 20 yards or under, 43 bulls in just 12 or so morning hunts. The next season, it was down to 20 something. And each year it became less and less using those sounds.

The only difference was that other guys were picking up on the sounds I was using. But many of them weren\'t careful and they were seen, winded, made bad shots. So the reaction was to shy away from these sounds.

These are sounds that you just don\'t hear every day in the elk woods. And if you do, 9 times out of 10 it will be a hunter making them. As I said, \"Elk don\'t think, they react\"! But that doesn\'t mean they are stupid.

 

[OldMan]

Not reacting to what doesn\'t seem right to a bull is also an instinct. It\'s their strong instinct to survive.

 

[Swede]

These are sounds that you just don\'t hear every day in the elk woods. And if you do, 9 times out of 10 it will be a hunter making them. As I said, \"Elk don\'t think, they react\"! But that doesn\'t mean they are stupid.

I agree with what WW is pointing out here. Another way to look at it is by using a dog analogy. WW could get his pooch to come at 6:00PM when he opens the box that has the dog\'s food. The dog knows it will be fed. WW\'s dog could learn there is no reason to get off the couch if WW opens the same box in the morning. It knows nothing is really happening.
Elk could easily learn to avoid estrus calls in early September and might still come in later in the month. So will they come in late September to your estrus call? Not if they have learned that estrus calls from unseen cows are harboring a hunter with a sharp stick.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Swede - I can burn it with bugles on a bull one weekend, wait a week and the work him again the next weekend with the same bugles. Why would they learn to shy away from cow calls but don\'t learn the same for bugles? Are bugles used as communication for a greater distance and by simple instinct, they know they are safe to respond? Cow calls, are in general, used for closer encounters. And closer sounds means danger could be closer?

Anyone ever work a bull only to have him go silent when you move in close? Maybe, when you are talking to a bull with long range bugle his simple instinct to breed is more powerful. The closer you get, the more his simple instinct to survive takes over. Can you use simple calls to swing the instinct scale back the other direction? Or do some bulls require more advanced calling tactics?

 

[cnelk]

I been watching this thread for awhile.
Animals, no matter what kind, have differing levels of \'smarts\'
Can One bull elk have a higher IQ than another?
I believe so.

I have done what WW mentioned with the estrus calls in the past. More recent years, I\'m not seeing the results I once did.

I have also seen different call have different effects on different days.
I think this goes back to instinct

 

[Swede]

Swede - I can burn it with bugles on a bull one weekend, wait a week and the work him again the next weekend with the same bugles. Why would they learn to shy away from cow calls but don\'t learn the same for bugles? Are bugles used as communication for a greater distance and by simple instinct, they know they are safe to respond? Cow calls, are in general, used for closer encounters. And closer sounds means danger could be closer?

John, I believe you also have biological issues to deal with. I am far from an expert on this, but there are several things at work at the same time. Biological changes, reactions to predators including humans, sociological interactions, and even the weather. I do not know how it all works, but I have learned it sure frustrates hunters.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

So are we saying that elk are learning not to respond to all estrus sounds giving by man or other elk? If elk don\'t fall for estrus sounds given by man, then the elk must be able to tell the difference between real and imitated. That to me would imply an evolving instinct and not a simple instinct. Estrus sounds are caused by a hormonal change in the cow(s) so it\'s not like they can stop using it.

 

[OldMan]

Besides their God given instincts. I\'m sure they can learn, and adapt too. However, they become instincts too.

What i\'m saying is an elk can\'t sit and think about a situation like we do, and then take the best solution. They react quickly with out thought. Whether it\'s a natural instinct, or one developed through experience. That\'s why no two elk will respond exactly the same. The herd cow is certainly smarter than a calf, but they both still share exactly the same natural instincts.

 

[Swede]

then the elk must be able to tell the difference between real and imitated

I am not sure about that part of your statement. Likely elk learn not to come to distant cow sounds just because it sounds like a cow is ready to breed. If they learn like I think they do, then you could likely still get a bull to come in at midnight, since hunters have not interrupted them after dark that way before. To be honest, we are pushing this beyond my comfort zone. I witnessed elk become very call shy, but just what limits there are to it, I don\'t know.
E.g. I have seen elk run from a very good, nonthreatening call made mid morning.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

Besides their God given instincts. I\'m sure they can learn, and adapt too. However, they become instincts too.

What i\'m saying is an elk can\'t sit and think about a situation like we do, and then take the best solution. They react quickly with out thought. Whether it\'s a natural instinct, or one developed through experience. That\'s why no two elk will respond exactly the same. The herd cow is certainly smarter than a calf, but they both still share exactly the same natural instincts.

Still - very we\'ll stated!

Swede - sorry if I push you too hard. You can return the favor next spring!

So, in my mind elk have simple but evolving instinct. And to adapt to this evolution we as callers need to adapt our calling tactics too. Simple elk, simple but evolving instinct, and simple to evolved calling tactics.

Just my dos centavos!

 

[cnelk]

Here is a question.
Since its determined that elk use instinct and are basically simple thinkers, maybe we as hunters should adjust accordingly.
It has been stated that elk get call shy.
Ok, why not use calls that they haven\'t heard before?

I mean really, if most hunters are using the same basic calls, why not venture out use or try something different?
I bet most of us here has used the same calls for the past 3-4 years?
Why?
Maybe we should go \'retro\' with older calls or even try something that hasn\'t been used?

i.e. Glacier Country - with your having the pulse on the call market, what\'s coming out that\'s new?
Or what would be an older call that some may call outdated? That would work well?