What does "aggressive" mean

[AndyJ]

With less than a month remaining until most elk seasons start, I thought it might be helpful to have a discussion on what I feel is one of the most commonly used and poorly explained and understood terms in elk hunting: being aggressive.

If I had to define aggressive hunting in a sentence it would be: Actively trying to get a shot. The opposite would be passively hunting which I would define as: Letting the shot happen own its own without influencing the outcome.

I will give a few examples that will hopefully illustrate my point.

Passive hunting:
-Sitting over a water hole or well used trail. You are letting the animal move naturally doing nothing to alter its movement. If one comes by you may get a shot. If one doesn\'t come by, you won\'t.

I tend to think of myself as a pretty aggressive hunter and a few examples come to mind with varying degrees of aggressiveness.

Not aggressive enough:
My first year hunting elk, my hunting partner and I were glassing in the afternoon and saw some elk up high right at timber line. I made a beeline and found a really high wallow near where the elk were feeding. The elk I wanted was the 300ish herd bull. About 15 minutes after setting up I could hear the herd coming. It sounded like a herd of cattle. I had the wallow in a small strip of grass in front of me. A strip of timber behind me and another grassy opening on the other side of the strip of trees. What I didn\'t realize was in the grassy opening behind me was a spring. The elk didn\'t go to the wallow as I had hoped, they went right behind me to the spring. I was well hidden, but there were probably 10 cows and the big herd bull. They drank and grazed for probably 20 minutes. Unfortunately, I was facing the wrong direction and every time I tried to turn around, one of the cows would stare me down. I thought I was going to blow out an eye muscle from looking so hard behind me. Eventually they all wandered away.

What I should have done:
I was used to hunting whitetails where when one blows out, they all blow out. Elk seem to want a little more proof before they waste the energy to run away. Especially in a herd, elk don\'t seemed to be bothered so much by just one elk spooking. I should have slowly turned around, the cow probably would have wondered what I was for long enough to get a shot. Even if she did spook all the others were totally relaxed and they probably would have just wondered what her deal is long enough for me to get a shot.

Really Aggressive:
Last year my partner and I were hunting a spot that has always treated us well. We have killed several big bulls within a hundred yards of each other. The pattern goes the same every time. The herd bull and his harem feed all night above tree line. When morning comes the elk come down into the trees, cross a faint ridge and bed in the north facing timber, we catch them as they cross the ridge. The problem is they are not coming straight down the ridge. They go straight down then move at a diagonal over the ridge so you need to be pretty close as they cut across. We got the bull responding to locator calls. We headed up hill as fast as possible until we saw the first of the cows and stopped to wait. Everything was going according to plan. The bull was big and bugling pretty frequently. Then they started to cut over the ridge. We were too low. The bull was going to be about sixty yards away when I saw him. 30 yards out of my range. I had a small cow and a spike feeding closer and closer to me. I thought I was done, I didn\'t know how I was going to get a shot. The spike got to literally four feet from me and had no idea I was there. My buddy was right behind me and started to laugh quietly because he thought the spike was going to walk into me. I began to wonder where I was going to smack the spike to get him to move along. I was afraid if I spooked the spike and the cow, all the elk would blow out of the area. I got a good look at the bull now moving slowly away from me and decided I needed to do something or my chance would slip away. I decided to run after him. I took off at full speed right for him. The timber is very dense and there where probably 20 cows. Most just watched me run. The spike and cow just looked up at me and went back to eating. I ran right into 30 yards of the bull and came to full draw...no shot...too much brush. I moved again when his sight was obscured by brush. This happened four times. There was something they didn\'t like, but they never spooked, they just kept moving at a leisurely pace. Most likely they thought I was a wound up calf making a raucous. That bull got away but only because brush was always in the way.

Another really aggressive example:
Last year also I located a bull that had a RANK bugle. You can\'t always tell the size of a bull by his bugle, but I knew this bull was big. We played the bugle game for a little while. I would blow a locator bugle and he would fire back a very aggressive bugle with grunts every time. After an hour of this I noticed he wasn\'t coming any closer. I was on the south side of a stream, he was on the north side. I would move closer and bugle, he would bugle back and not move. It was getting late and this needed to happen soon or it wouldn\'t happen. Again, it was very dense timber. Visibility was rarely more than 30 yards. I got to within about 100 yards and ran after him blowing the nastiest bugles I could. He would bugle back and move slowly away. I would get closer and closer. Finally we were within 30 yards of each other but we could rarely see each other. Usually I would see the tip of an antler. I had seen him the day before and knew he was bigger than 320\". I would charge after him blowing a bugle like I wanted to fight or run him out of there. He would just move away and bugle back. Finally after about 30 minutes of being within 30 yards and bugling back and forth he stepped into an opening and stopped to take a look at me. It looked like a thirty yard broadside chip shot. I sent an arrow on the way and it hit him high. I think there was a deflection and of course they never seem to deflect to a better spot. I never found the bull but that is a different story. I am reasonably sure I hit a spinal fin and hopefully didn\'t have a lethal hit. I looked for him for a week and didn\'t find him. Anyway, being aggressive got me the shot.

A few thoughts about being aggressive:
You need to know what you can get away with and that will take some experience. In the examples I gave the wind was always good and the visibility was poor so I took the elk\'s two best defenses out of the equation. When conditions are right you can get away with ALOT. Do not try to force the shot when it isn\'t going to happen. For every time I have been aggressive, there are probably ten or more that I have just left a bugling bull alone because I was sure it wasn\'t going to work out. One thing I would really like to stress is: REPEATEDLY BUMPING ELK IS NOT BEING AGGRESSIVE. IT IS HUNTING POORLY!!!!!!!! Every time you bump elk. Stop and ask yourself what you did wrong and if you had done something different could you have gotten a shot.

That\'s all I\'ve got. Sorry to be so long winded. Let\'s hear some other definitions, examples, thoughts or questions.

 

[Swede]

I decided to run after him. I took off at full speed right for him. The timber is very dense and there where probably 20 cows. Most just watched me run. The spike and cow just looked up at me and went back to eating. I ran right into 30 yards of the bull and came to full draw...no shot...too much brush. I moved again when his sight was obscured by brush. This happened four times. There was something they didn\'t like, but they never spooked, they just kept moving at a leisurely pace.

Huh?
So a person that hunts from a stand, after much research and scouting is not actively trying to get a shot? What about a person that pulls back from a site due to swirling winds? Is a person glassing a hillside being active?
I think you are on to something Andy, but I have a feeling that aggressive means different things to different hunters, based on a wide variety of factors and experiences. The experience I quoted from you is not something you will get away with where I hunt. It is too open, and the elk are way too sensitive to human activity. They would surely all be gone when the first cow bolt. The herd just instinctively bolts at the first sign of trouble.

 

[Deertick]

Great post, Andy. I especially liked the part about bumping elk being not equal to \"being aggressive.\"

I think understanding how and when to turn up or down the \"aggressive button\" is a key issue, and this has really helped.

 

[AndyJ]

So a person that hunts from a stand, after much research and scouting is not actively trying to get a shot?

Active and aggressive are two different things. What you describe above is being active. Walking slowly through the woods is being active. Getting out of the truck is being active. But it isn\'t being aggressive. I\'m talking about being aggressive and yes, there are many different levels of being aggressive. On a scale from Passive to Aggressive, sitting in a tree stand is very passive, but it isn\'t wrong, bad or anything negative. It is another style of hunting is all. All this post is attempting to do is give some insight as to what people are talking about when they say \"You need to be aggressive\". FYI all the examples I gave above are Colorado, OTC in a very heavily hunted unit.

What about a person that pulls back from a site due to swirling winds? Is a person glassing a hillside being active?

Reread my last paragraph. pulling back would be actively avoiding a shot. Glassing is actively locating elk but the term aggressive does not apply to retreat or glassing unless you can somehow aggressively retreat or aggressively glass a hillside.

 

[Swede]

Andy, I fundamentally disagree with much of the premise of your argument. A mountain lion, and the other natural predators in the wild are very aggressive by nature. Still they are not running all the time. At least 90% of the time they are still, or moving cautiously, quiet and alert. I have watched them when they saw something they would like to eat, but the situation was not right. They just continued to go their own way as though nothing was around. The head of the deer was up and it was watching, and the cat knew it.

pulling back would be actively avoiding a shot.

No sir. Pulling back can be a smart move designed to avoid spooking the elk and give you an opportunity for a later shot.

Beware there is smart aggressive and dumb aggressive. There is run and gun aggressive, which may be either, but there are many other ways to be aggressive too.

I have never had a close range situation where I could run at a herd bull four times, within sight him and/or the other elk, and they continued to hang around. Even the cattle where I hunt are too spooky for that.

 

[Deertick]

Andy\'s comments regarding how to approach the calling/set-up make a lot of sense. Mincing words is silly.

What he\'s trying to get at (I think) is that many people in those situations don\'t get the shot because they aren\'t on the offense enough ... as a football coach would say, an aggressive running back goes north-south, not east-west.

That doesn\'t mean that his linebackers can\'t be aggressive, or that sometimes it\'s smart to \"let the hole develop\" or run laterally. But we all know what a coach means when he says \"We have to move toward the goal to get to the goal.\" We all know the running backs who wait too long for a hole to develop, and it never does.

Sometimes (in hunting or anything else) we have to know when to \"let things develop\" and when to \"make things happen.\" Many people lean toward the former when they start elk hunting, and I think what Andy is saying is that in certain cases in a calling scenario, it\'s ok to \"make things happen\", or that knowing when to change those gears is a key that he has found to his successes.

As Andy said, you often hear \"You need to be more aggressive.\" A person needs to know what that means! As he said, it doesn\'t mean spooking elk.

I think he did a good job of explaining, a bit, of what that term really means!

 

[AndyJ]

Thank you Deertick. You got the message.

Swede you are starting to remind me why I got tired of forums. You can dance around with semantics all you want. I think I did a decent job of explaining the conditions need to be right. You seem to not just disagree, but to take offense with my topic. I started this post to shed some light on a very vague aspect of elk hunting techniques. I shoot bulls, get others shots on bulls and have opportunities at bulls every year by being aggressive WHEN THE TIME IS RIGHT. My techniques work whether you like it or not.

 

[Swede]

If I had to define aggressive hunting in a sentence it would be: Actively trying to get a shot. The opposite would be passively hunting which I would define as: Letting the shot happen own its own without influencing the outcome.

\"Mincing words\"??? Silly?? This was Andy\'s definition, not mine. It is fundamentally wrong. Active and aggressive are not synonymous.
The stand or still hunter is actively and diligently trying to get a shot. They do not necessarily rest or throw in the towel. I am not actively trying to get a shot while I sleep. But, I am looking, listening and checking my movements constantly when in a tree stand. Even if I am reading a little, it is with caution, looking up very frequently. My pack is open and prepared to absorb my book quickly and quietly. I am actively trying to get a shot. Tick, it is not mincing words to say that aggressive hunting as described is often no virtue. It is more often than not a recipe for tag soup.

Silly? It has been my observation that aggressive hunting, as described, has screwed up more hunts, and hunting areas than any other single hunting activity. That is why we are hunting harder for undisturbed areas than ever before.

pulling back would be actively avoiding a shot.

Don\'t back off. Just keep on going. Really?
The truth is that many times, backing off now will pay a big dividend later. Going on will only exacerbate your hunting woes, and drive the elk away.
I am seeing more aggressive hunting now than ever before. Hunters are trying to out do one another. Run and gun is touted as the answer. We just need to call more, and be more aggressive. My comment is, be cautious and careful like the Cougar. Don\'t get aggressive until the situation is just right. Be observant and size things up well in advance. The hunting area you are messing up is yours too.

 

[Swede]

Andy, I wrote my last post mostly in response to Tick\'s post, and entirely without regard to your latest one. You started this thread by saying you wanted a \"discussion\". You thank Tick for his comment, but talk of quitting forums when you reference mine. It sounds like all you wanted were fan messages and accolades. I accept you as a hunter and fellow member. I will be careful to not write anything to disparage your character. I simply disagree with much of the base of your original post.
Go ahead and explain where I am wrong. I have hunted elk a long time. I have read and studied elk more than a few days. I worked in the forests of Oregon for quite a few years, but I am still learning.

Hang in there buddy. None of us are above the rest here. Now have a great day.

 

[AndyJ]

This was Andy\'s definition, not mine.

Ok Swede you\'re right, but maybe you should have quoted that earlier. However, there is a difference between a discussion and an argument. You clearly want an argument.

Don\'t back off. Just keep on going. Really?

This aptly named argument technique is call reductio ad absurdum. Above is an example that you want an argument considering in my original post I wrote:

Do not try to force the shot when it isn\'t going to happen. For every time I have been aggressive, there are probably ten or more that I have just left a bugling bull alone because I was sure it wasn\'t going to work out.

Your petty personal attack of \"It sounds like all you wanted were fan messages and accolades.\" is pretty insulting. I wanted to help new guys understand what hunters are talking about consider \"be aggressive\" is a common tip.

Silly? It has been my observation that aggressive hunting, as described, has screwed up more hunts, and hunting areas than any other single hunting activity. That is why we are hunting harder for undisturbed areas than ever before.

Probably not much more than the guy sitting in a tree stand all day when the winds have become bad. Poor hunting practices are poor hunting practices regardless of style. Weekend campers have ruined plenty of hunting spots too. As have dogs off leash and boy scout troops, sheep, etc..

I\'m sorry someone pissed in your coffee this morning. But you but don\'t seem to have anything constructive to add. If you would like to contribute to a valid discussion, I would happily join in. If you want an argument, I will not oblige.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

AndyJ - I\'ve stated in the past that you and I hunt so much a like that I think we might be long lost brothers.

So back to your original question. I\'ve often wondered if one can solidly define \"aggressive\". Here\'s my attempt.

1). Calling: Passive calling is giving a calling sequences that attempts to bring in an elk by playing on its curiosity or giving a bull the impression he\'s about to gain a breeding opportunity. Aggressive calling is forcing a bull to defend his right to breed or giving the bull the impression he\'s about to loose a breeding opportunity. Waiting for the scenario to play out vs. forcing the scenario to play out?

2). Tactics: Aggressive tactics can include anything that would be out of the norm for your daily hunt in an attempt to force an encounter. Maybe better defined as \"stepping outside your comfort zone without crossing your own personal ethics line\".

Just my 2-cents!

 

[Jaquomo]

I do them all, and have had as many shooting opportunities when passively hunting after figuring them out, as with more aggressive tactics. Nothing beats calling them in and run-gun bowhunting, but that isn\'t always the best for me for getting good shots solo on herd bulls.

Once I ran after a herd that dropped over a timbered saddle. I called frantically like a lost calf and when I crossed the saddle I ran right into the middle of the herd. I looked around quickly as I put an arrow on the string and shot the herd bull at 8 yards with a stickbow. He ran down the hill and fell over.

I hurried back to my partner, who had just taken off his pack to get a Snickers. I\'d been gone about two minutes. He didn\'t believe what happened until I marched him over the saddle to see the dead bull lying there. That is about as aggressive as I\'ve ever been.

 

[mtnmutt]

My understanding of the BTO\'s Charter is to respect everyone\'s opinion even when their opinion does not align with our own opinions.

There was mention in the OP for a discussion.

Someone had a different opinion. I did not see a personal attack in this response. It was a different opinion.

Having a different opinion may appear argumentative. A discussion on any subject will invoke differing opinions. A differing opinion can feel like a personal attack. A debate can be conducted in a respectful manner.

Words are not always interpreted the same by the writer and the reader.

Reading postings carefully and thoroughly rather than skim reading may aide in understanding the writer\'s intent. Whether this will help with any misunderstanding of a person\'s postings is unknown to me.

Of course, my posting here is my opinion and extremely subjective. I have no authority to say that I am right. Everyone is welcome to disagree with me.

Edit: This thread transformed into one of the most insightful and educational threads here on BTO. I did not want my original post to discourage others from continuing to read future postings on this topic. Please continue to read future postings. The topic is extremely enlightening for all elk hunters.

 

[AndyJ]

Andy, I fundamentally disagree with much of the premise of your argument.

Swede, I think this is where we went sideways. I would like to get this back on a more productive, respectful track so I will go back to your original question:

So a person that hunts from a stand, after much research and scouting is not actively trying to get a shot? What about a person that pulls back from a site due to swirling winds? Is a person glassing a hillside being active?

I would say, don\'t get too hung up on my definition. As John said, it is really difficult to put a definition on being aggressive. It is far more of an intuitive thing which is why I think it isn\'t discussed all that much. So with your question in mind : Yes and no. That person is actively trying to locate elk but at the moment when an animal is close it is very much a sit tight and hope the animal comes to you. With an aggressive style of hunting you are the one making the move and getting into range in a situation when the animal may not be coming to you on its own. The guy glassing the hillside is actively searching for elk, but not necessarily being aggressive when getting into range.

When you think about it, it is amazing that anyone can locate, let alone kill an elk with a bow. You have thousands of acres, hundreds of square miles, and you try to get within 30 yards or so of a wise, wild animal. Sometimes, when conditions are right, it is necessary for you to be the one to get into range. That is what being aggressive is all about.

I have a feeling that aggressive means different things to different hunters, based on a wide variety of factors and experiences.

Absolutely, and that is what I had hoped to hear about.

The experience I quoted from you is not something you will get away with where I hunt.

Have you ever tried it? You might be surprised. You will never get away with running at elk through an open field, but again, that is just part of picking the right technique for the situation. No one technique works all the time. As Lou said, you\'ve got to use them all.

Don\'t back off. Just keep on going. Really?
The truth is that many times, backing off now will pay a big dividend later.

You know you are reading that wrong. I back off all the time. I think I am more aggressive than most, but I am also more cautious than most. If I know where a good bull is hanging out, I will wait sometimes days for the conditions to be right before going after him. Sometimes that means someone else will spook him or he will just leave, but that is hunting. I back out of a lot of situations that I think most would go for. You\'re losing the battle in an attempt to win the war, but that is a huge part of hunting aggressively. Recognize when the time and conditions are right and MAKE the shot happen.

 

[Swede]

Andy, I like your clarification, and have no problem with it. My concern is that, I have seen people follow some particular point, without hunting knowledge or experience to put things in context.

BTW, I have tried the more aggressive approach. I agree there is a place for being assertive and aggressive.
I have told the story a few time here, but this merits repeating.
Several years ago, while I was in my tree stand, I heard this bull about 200 yards away. He sounded good. He faded away, but started coming back about an hour later. I saw a group of elk ahead of him, that was heading up hill and out of my area. In a few minutes another herd went uphill in front of me. Both herds were just out of my shooting range. I did not care. I could still hear this big bull coming. I knew it was a bull as I could hear him make those guttural sounds that no human can duplicate, and his bugles were perfect. Soon he was down the draw just below me. Then I saw him. It was Mike Slinkard, of Winners Choice Bowstrings. I was standing there bug eyed, with my bow in hand, ready to draw. I was devastated. He sounded so good, I was completely fooled. I came to realize some people are incredible with a diaphragm.
I talked to Mike and he had no idea he had just pushed two small herds out of the area. In spike of the quality of Mike\'s calls the elk were gone. They went to the ranch where no one could hut them. The area is heavily roaded and over called. That is one example, and one reason, my calling is nonaggressive where I have been hunting. It has not always been that way. Times have changed, and so has my aggressiveness.

 

[iccyman001]

Words are not always interpreted the same by the writer and the reader.

Reading postings carefully and thoroughly rather than skim reading may aide in understanding the writer\'s intent. Whether this will help with any misunderstanding of a person\'s postings is unknown to me.

Perfect explanation, ma\'am.

I am 100% guilty of misreading stuff before and instantly reacting on it. Or only skimming it and filling in the pieces myself when that\'s not what the writer meant.
I\'ve made a very conscious effect since then to follow those guidelines you just posted.

:upthumb:

 

[iccyman001]

Andy,

I plan on using appropriate aggressive measures this year, if the hunt needs me to.
I have some early day stands that I need to throttle back and potentially just let things happen. (I\'ll be in a tree stand or ground blind)

But then I have some scenarios that I will definitely be aggressive. Like if I hear a bugle far out, I call back and he isn\'t coming to me, I will bring the fight to him. Similar to Tom\'s being stubborn and not coming into hen calls, sometimes you need to bring it to them. :mg:

It seems like you have had a lot of trial and error with your aggression levels and I think situations like those will certainly help you in the long run.
That\'s another reason I want to try some tactics out. Even if I mess up, I will still learn from it.

 

[JohnFitzgerald]

I think one of the biggest mistakes a hunter can make is that they assume all elk are the same. Fact is hunting pressure, predators, and cow to bull ratio affect elk behavior.

First, understand the elk you hunt then determine how aggressive you need to be. I too use the run in tactic but I can also can choose to sit back and draw the elk to me.

 

[Deertick]

My concern is that, I have seen people follow some particular point, without hunting knowledge or experience to put things in context.

Perfect reason to bring it up here. After all, what I\'m trying to do is learn from the experience of OTHERS.

What do they say? \"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes mostly from bad judgement.\" Well, I\'d love to hear about anyone\'s \"experience\" so I don\'t have to display my own bad judgement.

Aggressiveness, and the timing and use of it, is common to most all hunting, and with experience, a hunter begins to understand when to apply it! (Most of us refer to that as \"instinct\", but it\'s not ... it\'s a judgement call).

When it all comes together, it appears \"instinctual\" ... like a running back knowing when to cut back, and when to accelerate.

I think a \"discussion\" or \"conversation\" about how we each came to our different ways of understanding it will benefit all!

The flip side is that we remain in \"default\" passive-mode. Sure, we don\'t spot (many) elk that way, but we also end up beaten and confused. But the typical eastern whitetail hunter has learned to make \"passive\" work, and he\'s going to have a strong, natural aversion to \"aggressive\" hunting. And he\'ll miss out on so much!

Watching a cat hunt is a great example of knowing when to \"push it\", and when to give up. What many don\'t realize is that cats go on tens of stalks per day. But they definitely know what they can \"get away with\", and when they see those stars line up (like Andy was speaking of), they make their move!

So, Andy was telling us how he recognizes the \"stars lining up\". It\'s a topic that continues to baffle me, with regard to any hunting or shooting, which is, BTW, why I keep at those activities.

 

[Swede]

Tick, Excuse me. I have never suggested we don\'t discuss the topic. It is as good as any, and better than some, like moon phase threads. Most posts are intended to shed more light on the subject. What I said was be careful as this approach left unabated can lead to problems. It is about the same as run and gun, or endless calling. Use it where it fits. Leave it where it doesn\'t. What I trying to clarify was some of the pitfalls of being aggressive. It works better in some places than others. To his credit, I think Andy was trying to say that in his last paragraph in post 1, but it was not clear enough to me.
Paul Medel promotes run and gun bow hunting. Bugle a lot and go. When you get close, he writes about three heights of aggressiveness, called threat levels. It works for him where he hunts in Idaho. I have read that he has hunted other States and areas, but I have never read anything about kills in New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming or Oregon where he has been.
If I remember right there have been threads that claim you can\'t call too much. You can call too much.

what I\'m trying to do is learn from the experience of OTHERS.

That is exactly why I posted what I did. This thread can be a good place to read and reflect on what you are doing in the elk woods and decide how you want to proceed. Andy started a good topic. Nobody is trying to cut it off.