Why do I suck at Elk Hunting? Seriously, help!

[Napoleon54]

Let me say a few things about how I/we hunt and some of my frustrations.  Then tell me why it isn't working at what I need to do differently.


About us:  I hunt with my Dad and my brother.  My dad is in his early 60's and my brother late 30's.  I'm 40.  We are reasonably fit.  Of the 3 of us, only I have killed an elk.  It was a cow on a special permit in WA.  It was a hunt that my father in law scouted and arranged, I just drew the tag and pulled the trigger.  We have been hunting eastern WA for years but since we are spread between ID, WA and UT we are hunting UT & ID now.


How we hunt:  First what we don't do.  We don't road hunt.  We have no ATVs, etc. 


We are not afraid to work.  5 miles in a day is common.  8-10 happens.  Up 1000 feet in elevation to get to where we want to be before light happens.  We try to find the areas that are far from roads.  We don't have lot's of time for scouting in person so we generally need to find areas that have feed, cover and water.  We are more frequently now backpacking in and camping closer to the hunting areas.  For example this year we packed in to the High Uintas Wilderness.  For the last several years we have hunted archery.  This year we tried rifle b/cwe felt that for our first time in UT we had a better chance w/ rifle since we did not know the areas.  I have tried calling with basically no success.  I [/size]feel like i'm more likely to chase everything out of the county with my bugles/mouth calls than not.  So I try the hoochie mama to no avail.  [/size]We have all determined that this will be our area of focused learning this year.  I'd like to know what is the best resource to learn from?  Videos, etc are nice but nobody is there to tell me if the sound I'm producing sounds outside my head the way it does inside my head.
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To start the hunt and, frankly, all mornings since we are not getting into a bunch of elk, we sit looking at meadows or clearings near cover and water.  Usually, we see nothing all morning.  This year, one morning my brother saw a couple elk moving well before light but couldn't tell if they were cows or bulls because it was still so dark.  We seem to regularly hear cow calls.  This is where I think we really fall off (please say so if you think it is earlier in the process).  As the morning gets later we have to decide what to do next.  Typically, we put Dad at the bottom of a draw or ridge that is covered in thick timber and my brother & I "still hunt" our way down through it.  The idea is that we could see something and shoot it or if we scare it out, Dad's down there waiting for it.  It hasn't ever worked like that.  Based on what we hear and the sign we see, we are reasonably sure there are elk around.  What does everybody else do in the late morning to mid day?


Evening comes and we sit on meadows hoping to see elk move out.  They don't.  We walk out, head back to camp and start the process again the following morning.


How long do you stay in an area if you have sign that is relatively recent but aren't seeing elk?  What do you do during the mid day?  Where/How did you learn to call?  How do you know if you are "good enough" to try it in the woods?


I recognize that 80-90% of the elk are killed by 10-20% of the hunters.  I/We will do basically whatever it takes to get into that 10-20%.  What am I missing?

 

[MT_mulies]

Well I'm not an expert on the subject, but I will throw out a couple of ideas and I can maybe help out a little bit. I grew up hunting just like what you are talking about and I hated it because I never killed anything either. So everytime my dad asked if I wanted to deer or elk hunt I always said deer because I knew I could kill something. Since I graduated high school 10+ years ago I've drastically changed how I hunt and I've killed or seen a lot more elk every year.

First off I spend about 60-80% of the day behind my binoculars looking for elk. No need to go walk through a group of trees to see if there are elk when if you are up at first light and watch the trees during the day you will either see elk go into them or see elk moving around in them throughout the morning. I rarely walk through trees anymore without knowing there are elk in them first.

Second find someone who knows what they are doing and tag along or offer them a hunting trip for a hunting trip. Luckily by best friend got me into archery elk hunting and taught me a lot the first couple years. Archery hunting is in my opinion a lot different than rifle hunting yet very similar......if that makes any sense haha. If you can find someone to help you learn a little different technique or style or calling your chances should increase in killing an elk. But if someone takes you don't be a leach and just use their sport or just use them to get information. Trade something like a fishing trip, and hunting trip, football game, ect. Something so the friendship isn't one sided. I took someone one year and they turned into a leach and I told myself after that I wouldn't take anyone ever again, unless it was a "fair" trade. Selfish of me? Probably but usually people put in a lot of time and money and effort to find good hunting spots.

Third be patient. I usually don't move from my spotting vantage point till around 9 unless I know I can get to an elk or deer easily. From what I have seen animals will be moving till 9-10 ish then bed down for a little while. Then be back up at noon-2 and then bed down and then be back up in the evening. My first bull I ever killed with a bow we saw him in a creek bottom at noon feeding. And I shot him at 2 in the afternoon. Elk can be anywhere at any given time so don't let your guard down. Having said that I usually take a little nap between noon and 4 depending on what is happening, but my bow is always right next to me. I have been awaken with elk going by me.

Fourth get to high elevation. In my experience unless it is the very last couple weeks of November when the snow and cold is pushing them out of the mountains, the elk hang as high as they can to stay cool, stay away from hunters, and in general avoid people. (but you can catch them down low) And I usually don't glass meadows, since there aren't very many in the high altitudes and mountain tops. I glass opening in the trees, about 100-500 yards from the tree line (uphill downhill, left and right of the tree line), and I glass draws and saddles(natural areas where two hills meet).

If you want to learn to call maybe sit down with someone and listen on youtube and then try to mimic the sound. The person with you will be able to tell the difference between you and youtube. I know in my head I sound like a world chamption elk caller, but when I hear it on a video or something it sounds a lot different.

And if you not finding elk then move a canyon or two away. They are around there somewhere. When it comes to archery hunting I have noticed that elk seem to stay a little more centrally located, but during the rifle season they are on a 3-4 day pattern. I have been to places that elk were in the day or two before, so I hunt that same place for the next 2-3 days and the elk eventually show back up. Whether they get pushed out by someone else or they are just naturally roaming their home range. They will be back.  Or if they get bumped out, chances are someone in the next couple days will bump into them and they have to go somewhere they are familiar with.

I think the biggest advantage for you, would be to either hunt with someone who is experienced and offer something in return or spend some days in the summer hiking around trying to find elk and watch how they act. They will act the same during hunting season unless they are getting lots of pressure. You don't have to go looking for elk where you plan to hunt (even though that would be the best), just go find elk someone and watch.

I'm sure there will be people who disagree with me and have different opinions. But that is ok because we all hunt different and have had different learning experiences. The more opinions the better and if we all have something in common then try those commonalities, and if we have something different, then try our differences out in different circumstances.

This is by far the longest post I've ever had and my hands are getting tired so I'm going to stop now.

 

[Wyo67]

Understand your frustrations - if it were easy, everyone would do it.  A couple thingsI can offer up.

First of all resources.  Don't be afraid to look around and gather information from other elk hunting websites.  I frequent here at Elk101.com, Wapititalk.com and occasionally Bowsite. 
- I most highly recommend Corey's University of Elk Hunting course that is available here from Elk101.  If you don't want to invest in the course, then at a minimum check out the DVD as an alternate.  However, you will get way information from the online course (scouting/tactics/thermals/calling etc...).
- Check out the DVDs available from Elknut.  I have nearly his entire collection and review a lot of them before each archery season.  A lot of elk sound information that you may not use, but it is helpful to hear them so you can relate to what you're hearing in the woods.
- Don't be afraid to reach out to the experts.  I've traded emails several times with Corey here at Elk101 and have spoken on the phone a few times with Paul Medel (Elknut).  Be aware if you call Paul, you will probably spend 30-60minutes on the phone with him!

2nd Strategy
- It's not necessarily the miles you put in, but are you getting to elk habitat?  While it is true getting away from roads can be beneficial, if the elk bed, feed, and rut in a canyon a mile from the road, why go further?
- Invest in a cheap-o tape recorder and record yourself while calling.  I have Elknuts Sounds By The Elk in my trucks CD player and try to mimic the sounds that I will need to make in the woods (locator bugles, challenge bugles, cow sounds etc.).
- I'm not a big fan of sitting and watching meadows and clearings for elk.  They are not like deer, difficult to pattern and they won't often break cover and feed in openings like that for long.  If you're sold on sitting, I'd recommend finding a water source close to a bedding area.  Personally, while you're walking I'd recommend a series locator bugles on ridges and draws until you get a response.  If you're regularly hearing cows, you are close!  I'd bet you're probably within 100 yards of a herd and that there's at least one silent bull in there with them.  Cow call back at them and respond accordingly if a cow or bull answers.  When we're calling elk, I get excited when I hear cows mewing, because that means we are getting close.
- I'm sure still hunting can be successful if you're paying attention to the wind.  I've never tried it, but I think it would be difficult to "drive" elk down a ridge or draw.  If the thermals or wind is still going uphill, they will simply circle you and get uphill/upwind of you. 

To answer your questions at the bottom:
- If there's fresh sign and I've heard bulls bugle, I will hunt that area until they stop bugling or the tag is punched.  We hunt the same general areas year after year and have a pretty good idea where the elk are in our areas.  I've gone to other areas to avoid hunters way more often than due to not finding elk.
- Mid day - We will find some shade, eat and wait for the thermals to stabilize.  Usually on a ridge, overlooking a draw and listening for the elk to throw out some locator bugles and formulating an afternoon plan based on what we've heard and where we are at on the mountain.  Elk will get out of bed in the middle of the day to water.  Once the bulls get fired up due to the impending (or in progress) rut, they will bugle during all times of the day. 
- I learned to call a few years back by imitating Elknuts DVDs.  Refined my technique and sequence from the information here on Elk101.  You have to find the right diaphragm that fits you and stick with it.  I've got probably 25 different diaphragm calls in a baggie that don't fit or didn't sound right for me.
- You don't have tobe an expert or a perfect caller to bring in elk.  I called in 5 cows this year to within 10 feet using nothing but an open reed (Temptress) cow call.  When the cow responded to my calls, I kept calling to her as she responded until she came in with her companions.  Even though I despise it, we also had elk responding to the Hoochie Mama this year.  Sometimes even elk don't sound like elk, not every call or sequence that you make needs to be perfect.

 

[buglelk]

Napolean54,


Seriously, sign up for the UEH Online Course. It covers ever single issue you mentioned in your post in GREAT detail, plus a TON more! If you sign up before the end of October, it will cost you less than it costs you to drive from Washington to Idaho...use code 'LASTCHANCE40' and you can sign up for just $59. Here is the link:


http://www.elk101.com/product/university-of-elk-hunting-online-course/


You can do it! Become one of the 10%'ers!


Many thanks,
Corey

 

[Napoleon54]

Thanks guys.  I have done the UEH course.  You can imagine how little I knew before!  BTW I also have the EHU DVD too.


I appreciate all the advice. 


MT_Mulies where/how would you go about finding someone to hunt with/make a deal with?

 

[mlob1one]

Pm sent

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[MT_mulies]

Hey Napoleon,
I just talk to everyone at work, friends, family, and just in general. If someone doesn't like to hunt I'm pretty much not their friends haha. I do a lot of fishing, duck hunting, coyote hunting, varmit hunting. When I find out that someone likes to do one of my hobbies, then I might say something like "hey I have an awesome spot for fishing and we will catch a bunch wanna go with?" if they say yes then while we are out we talk about lots of things and I usually just try to see if they would wanna go hunting together or not. I don't push it if they say no.
Or you can ask them if they would take you hunting but not to their "honey hole" and in exchange you will hook them up with something. But make sure to deliver on your end of the bargain. I have a guy in Northern Idaho that wants to take me and my brother steelhead fishing and we are "guaranteed" to catch fish. In exchange he wants me to take him elk hunting. I told him I would think about it. I like fishing, but I don't know if I like enough to take someone elk hunting haha. But if he offered me a mule deer hunt in exchange I would jump at the chance.
You will just need to find someone that is interested in something you have in exchange. Kind of a cat and mouse game. You might also find someone who is nicer and they will just take you to help you learn.
Or someone who is older that doesn't want to hunt alone or a friend who doesn't want to hunt by themselves.
In every situation that you get in try to bring up hunting. That's what I do, and I learn a lot just by listening. People love to talk about their hunting spots and where they hunt. You might not even need to ask questions and people will tell you a lot more than if you actually ask them where they hunt.
But don't be over bearing. When I was younger I made more deals till I figured out what I was doing. Now it seems that people want to make the deals with me.
And if someone shows you a spot its an unwritten hunting rule that you don't go back to that spot unless the person is with you or they give you permission. Nothing will burn a friendship quite as quick as going to some ones spot without them. I know that sounds crazy, but its not a good thing haha.
Just my 2 cents.

 

[Bull_Fighter]

Keep doing what you're doing. Being curious and seeking out answers through forums like this one can add a lot to your knowledge base. Don't be frustrated when you see Cam Hanes posting pics of his 6th giant bull of the season.